Suggestions for atheist framework

[Mister Agenda]

Hi, AndrewT! I hope your first post won't be your last. Welcome.

I am a Roman Catholic and I have friends who are atheist, and quite a few for very good reasons considering the hypocrisy and failures of the Church at large.

I wish I could take such tolerance of atheists for granted, but thank you for knowingly having atheists as friends. In time I hope that will be almost as cool as having black friends.

I have one friend in particular that i am trying to find a "healthy" atheist communities or phylosopher for to help him find his own meaning with out needing to use or convert to Christianity.

For community, there's often a Meetup nearby. Without a secret handshake, we've taken to finding each other on the intertubez. Philosophy is trickier. There's no 'theist' philosophy, singular; let alone an atheist philosophy. Most of us Western atheists are comfortable with rational skepticism and humanism. 'Good Without God' might be a good read if your friend has concerns about moral issues as an atheist.

Who are the more renowned atheist philosophers who have made moves toward a framework that helps a person struggling to find meaning to life?

Epicurus comes to mind. An atheist philosophy is kind of like an atheist handbook on plumbing. The 'atheist' part goes without saying unless otherwise specified. Any philosophy that isn't specifically theist can be considered an atheist philosophy. I don't see how a philosophy could depend on mere atheism or theism. Is this person particularly interested in philosophy and struggling to find meaning to life? A lot of people who haven't spent five minutes consciously thinking about philosophy manage to not struggle with the meaning of life fine.

I want to make a very superficial observation about this community.

You're in a lot of company.

It seems you spend more time trying to convince each other of that God does not exist than working through issues of meaning with each other.

Hmm. I'm not going to dispute that, given it's not 'workthroughtheissuesofmeaning.org'. I think you might be interpreting things a bit differently than we would though, as we don't take much convincing to not believe what we already don't believe. The forum is necessarily kind of self-selecting for people interested in discussing things to do with disbelief in deities, it's a hobby or interest, not an Atheists Anonymous meeting.

If you don't believe in God then fine, ignore us and the insecure idiots that call themselves Christians and work with each other to demonstrate the relevance of your philosophy.

Have you really thought through what it sounds like when you come to atheistforums.org and demand to be ignored? And atheism isn't a philosphy or a worldview. Neither is theism. If we weren't surrounded by theists, there wouldn't even be a point in having a word for us. That said, enough of the frequenters of this forum who are atheists think that critical thinking and healthy skepticism are valuable, that you could say there's a germ of a philosophy there. Do you need convincing that those things are relevant?

Thank you for your suggestions,

Andrew

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Sorry that second sentence was an enormous run-on!

You're welcome. And I've been known to generate an overly long sentence or two myself, so no worries.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Why on EARTH should I care what some patronising Catholic thinks? He hasn't even managed to grasp the meaning of the word 'atheist' . He makes the unfounded assumption that atheists need meaning and indeed that there is one.


That we waste our time when we 'should' be looking for meaning is a typically ignorant and arrogant apologist attitude.

There is no such thing as 'atheist philosophers';there are philosophers who are also atheists. Atheism refers ONLY to a lack of belief on god(s). If you are looking for a philosophical explanation for not believing,I recommend Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not a Christian"

That a person cannot imagine a life without the crutch of religion or something to replace it is an argument from incredulity. It says a great deal about person the person holding such an idea,but nothing of value.

Having argued with trained Catholic sophists, I really have no interest in a stranger who presents as either profoundly smug and ignorant or simply predictably disingenuous.

[AndrewT]

I'm not sure where to begin... I have a short window to reply to a number of comments. I did briefly introduce myself, I can elaborate if you would like KichigaiNeko.

Insanity X: thank you for your reply. I think when we make judgements about life i.e. no after life, find pleasure in reality etc, we are establishing our own world view. So I use the word "meaning" to express that, why is that such a hot button word here? I am ok with everyone here establishing their own meaning.

I don't know of hand who posted it, but I am not posting to do some back door conversion. I am here to ask, learn and listen. I think there are good reason not to believe in God, mostly human reasons.

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Mister Agenda: I want to thank you for respecting my questions. I agree with you on quite a few points.

I want to say that I am sorry for generalizing, so I will try to make my questions more specific.

Sorry I don't have much time...

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Abracadabra: you are right Christian are annoying as hell!

I do not think you are lost.

More later...maybe a day or two.

[Faith No More]

I don't know of hand who posted it, but I am not posting to do some back door conversion. I am here to ask, learn and listen. I think there are good reason not to believe in God, mostly human reasons

It was me, and don't take it personally. We get a plethera of theists and the like who come here under the guise of 'just wanting to learn,' so my experience tells me that I should be skeptical of your intentions. I truly hope you are here to learn however, and that we can help dispell some of the atheist stereotypes that permeate through religious circles.

[AthiestAtheist]

It seems you spend more time trying to convince each other of that God does not exist than working through issues of meaning with each other.

And why do you expect us to work through the issues of meaning? I don't think that is an issue to most atheists.

and work with each other to demonstrate the relevance of your philosophy

Atheism is not a philosophy.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Andrew:

On reflection,,I'll take you on face value,and assume you are sincere:

An agnostic atheist, I make no claims. I assert only " I do not believe in god(s) due to a lack of credible evidence". My atheism is an effect not a cause.I left the Catholic Church at age 20,after thinking deeply about some the more absurd claims,whose authority comes from the corkscrew logic of some of the more devious church sophists,starting with Augustine and Aquinas. It took me a further 20 years,of questions, formal and informal study before I reached the inevitable conclusion of atheism.IE I simply no longer believed.


Today,I do not have a single cohesive personal philosophy. Instead, I have a rather eclectic mixture of ideas which make sense to me. Formal names for the basis of my world view include: Skepticism, egoism (on several levels) empiricism, materialism,pragmatism and moral relativism.

I am NOT anti theist or anti religion per se. I AM anti organised religion, which I consider parasitic and a boil on the arse of humanity. I have a visceral loathing of and contempt for the Catholic church as an institution. I consider it ruthless, immoral,hidebound,and deeply corrupt ,from the top down.Fortunately the stench does not always reach the parish level.



In brief: I simply see human beings as just another species of apes.(primates) I think ourr sentience gives us delusions of grandeur. That our sense of 'specialness" is an illusion;we are important only to ourselves.That's fine with me. I love life and savour every day,moreso with each passing year. I have an insatiable curiosity and am fascinated by the world around me:However it's the 'what' rather than the 'why' which intrigues me. So far I have never seen any evidence that there is any such thing as a 'why' in any philosophical sense of the word.

[KichigaiNeko]

http://atheistforums.org/forum-11.html

Funny that Andrew...I did not see your introduction in the above link.

Don't mind me, it is a pet peeve I have and you are just one more in a long line of theistic persons to add to my convictions.

[Whateverist]

I am a Roman Catholic and I have friends who are atheist, and quite a few for very good reasons considering the hypocrisy and failures of the Church at large. I have one friend in particular that i am trying to find a "healthy" atheist communities or phylosopher for to help him find his own meaning with out needing to use or convert to Christianity. Who are the more renowned atheist philosophers who have made moves toward a framework that helps a person struggling to find meaning to life?

I'm touched by your tolerance and your concern to help your friend with out exploiting what you perceive to be his need to win a convert for your religion. I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to recommend, but I'm very interested in discovering what is meaningful and in understanding our nature as human beings. For me, this must be a personal journey and not a question of affiliation. [/quote]

I want to make a very superficial observation about this community. It seems you spend more time trying to convince each other of that God does not exist than working through issues of meaning with each other. If you don't believe in God then fine, ignore us and the insecure idiots that call themselves Christians and work with each other to demonstrate the relevance of your philosophy.

I sometimes feel like I'm in an echo chamber here too. A lot of the preaching to the choir no doubt stems from people working out resentments arising from being brought up in religious settings not of their choosing. If there are some chips on some shoulders, that is to be expected. If they cannot express that here, then where?

However, I don't ultimately enjoy those sorts of cathartic exchanges. You should stick around and discuss what you find meaningful .. minus the bible verses of course. Meaty questions are always welcome.

[NoMoreFaith]

I have one friend in particular that i am trying to find a "healthy" atheist communities or phylosopher for to help him find his own meaning with out needing to use or convert to Christianity.

I heartily recommend thinking. Thinking about your own meaning is usually the best way to do that.

Who are the more renowned atheist philosophers who have made moves toward a framework that helps a person struggling to find meaning to life?

Thats a long exhaustive list I'm afraid, Bernard Williams is always a good starting point in terms of moral philosophy.

I want to make a very superficial observation about this community. It seems you spend more time trying to convince each other of that God does not exist than working through issues of meaning with each other.

As a new member I have to say, I haven't really been involved in a single sensible religious discussion. I'm not counting one where they seemed a little unhinged and resorted to 'Lying for Jesus'.
Mostly political issues. Any issues of meaning you want to start would almost certainly be discussed if you wish to start one.

It's been mentioned that there is a reason the word Afaeism doesn't exist (my guess at what lack of belief in faeries would be), and the same goes for atheism, its not a world view or philosphy, its simply lack of belief in God. If belief in faeries was taken seriously, then Afaeism would have to exist too, but it presumes no moral or philosophical views by not believing in faeries? DUCY?
Starting with the presupposition that you require God for meaning and morality is the only reason you presume Atheism is required to give meaning and morality as well, which is entirely inaccurate.

Atheism is lack of belief in God, people consider and adopt, and come up with for themselves various moral system. Personally I agree with Secular Humanism in most areas, and as for meaning, I have two wonderful children, a wife I love more than anything, and a constant sense of wonder and surprise at this universe and world around us... it always surprises me that anyone needs more meaning than this.

You seem like a pleasant and rational chap, so if you have any issues you would like this melting pot of ideologies to comment on, I urge you to do so.

[KichigaiNeko]