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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 1:35 am
(This post was last modified: February 28, 2012 at 1:42 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(February 25, 2012 at 3:55 pm)Smitty Wrote: Glad to get a response! As to "why," I don't see how this is different from the "why" of any particular evolved physical charactoristic. "It was useful in a particular time, place, and context, so it tended to be selected for," would be my answer.
Not the way I'd put it (although the argument for evolution does have an unavoidable circular quality to it). First, what kept ending up dead was generally what was seen as uncooperative in a way that the group percieved as threatening group survival or well-being. Such a "judgement" might have led to an individual being ostracized by the group or getting a smaller share of the food, or ultimately, not getting laid and reproducing. The particulars of evolution are often a problem for believers; how do you explain the absurdly-inconvenient antlers of the Cenozoic Irish Elk but as the whimsical creation of God? But they are easily explained: the gals thought they were hot, and the bearers of such antlers got laid. In a rather similar fashion you can answer the particulars of morality, which to a great extent is not universal but culturally relative. Why will a father murder a beloved daughter who lies with a man who is not her father's choice for her, in some Middle Eastern cultures? As abominable as such a thing seems to us, it is an intensely moral stance for the father, who could hardly overcome his misery and countenance murder without it being an inescapable moral imperative. A believer (here) will try to kill this idea with an over-simplification: " . . . so the father is going to get laid more often because he kills his daughter, is that it??!!" Who knows, seems unlikely, but the evolution of physical traits most often can't be observed in immediate, case-by-case, cause-and-effect transactions, either. And to arrive at why the particular moral imperative evolved, in the particular culture, time, place, etc., you would be dealing with the product of a lot of variables, as you say.
Why do all birds have bills? Any Darwinian rejects the notion that God said "Shuh-ZAAMM!!" and made 'em that way, and knows that the evidence currently points to birds having evolved from some early Jurassic dinosaurian that had jaws and teeth . . . and would agree that the short answer is that it is explained by who survived and got laid and who didn't get laid, and ultimately by the survival of the genes of the ones who got laid. Morals aren't selected for genetically, and they weren't handed down on stone tablets by God, either, yet every gregarious species has its code of conduct because willful selfishness and disregard of others disrupts the group, threatening prosperity if not survival.
Put your quote and /quote in square brackets.... not like this (quote) or (end quote)
http://atheistforums.org/thread-3560.html All the answers you need under "Information" BB Code Guide
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 1:42 am
Oh the irony Kichi....lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 1:44 am
Sorry Rhythm but I'm not functioning well today...why irony??
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 1:46 am
(This post was last modified: February 28, 2012 at 1:48 am by The Grand Nudger.)
The quote tags..hehehe. I'm like a hawk when posts go up.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 1:48 am
(February 28, 2012 at 1:46 am)Rhythm Wrote: The quote tags..hehehe. I'm like a hawk when posts go up.
He really did fuck up badly ...I could read it but couldn't reproduce it
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 5:01 am
Obviously it's ridiculous to say that atheists have no morals, as everyone, including atheists, just want to live a fulfilling life, and that can only happen if we can continue to exist without constant negative interference, and logically, the only way to exist without negative interference is to create a set of rules and morals that everyone lives by. I would agree with you concerning the evolution of some of the morals that span all or most cultures, but when you take into account some of the very different moral codes of religions and cultures it gets a bit more confusing, as some of them are so vastly different. I mean, if you were to use that argument against a devout Christian that was claiming Atheists have no morals, you wouldn't be able to account for homosexual sex or sex before marriage, which, in his eyes, is immoral, even though it is not for the general public.
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 5:55 am
Hi picto...I missed your introduction
HERE
Do drop by and introduce yourself 
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 11:02 pm
(February 27, 2012 at 4:14 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: ADD: here it is, the 52 page thread where I and others here tried to patiently explain to Waldork why presuppositional apologetics fails.
Turn to http://atheistforums.org/thread-8159-post-166727.html#pid166727 and wade through as much as you dare to subject your mind to.
Jesus fucking Christ, that thread went on about 51.75 more pages than it needed to to prove that particular point.
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 11:29 pm
Welcome Smitty to the forum. Good post. I agree that morality is an evolutionary byproduct. What I find interesting (and perhaps more pertinent) is how culture, the arts and various societal influences such as technology and such have an ongoing affect on morality as a whole. (Some for better, some for worse) Morality is also a learned response. Nature AND Nurture are both critical in human development.
And This reminds me of a joke I heard about the 10 commandents (the so-called laws of morality)...What is really messed up with the commandent "Thou shalt not kill" is the very fact that they had to WRITE IT DOWN!!
You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
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RE: Morality evolved.
February 28, 2012 at 11:31 pm
(This post was last modified: February 28, 2012 at 11:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You didn't find your own scriptures in a book? I guess buddhists were such heathens that they had to write their own stuff down as well, or they would have forgotten it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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