Desktops

[Kyuuketsuki]

I think we were actually talking about Linux as an operating system, not as just a kernel. That should have been obvious.

And it should be clear I consider that to be an invalid argument ... a distro is modular (it has to be) which confers on it a number of advantages and some disadvantages but the fact that other OS's apart from "Linux" can use the very same components inherently means Linux cannot claim them to be it's own and the fact that there are so many distro's which vary considerably in ability and quality means you can't truly make a definitive statement about Linux as a whole unless referring to that which actually is Linux (the kernel).

In fact, I said Gnome came with it by default (which is true). Gnome is a desktop manager that is used by various Linux distributions. I suspect KDE and xfce also have multiple desktop features by default to.

Also runs on UNIX ... so not specifically a Linux thing.

Oh, and as for your "a Linux based system can be anything because it's "just" a collection of programs", surely the same can be said of any OS? At the end of the day, an OS is a load of programs working together, including Windows.

To a degree yes but Windows is designed to work together from the start and sold as a single and supposedly consistent OS. The same would be true of Apple OS I guess (though less so today with OS-X).

Why am I arguing it? Because you jump in every time singing the praises of Linux and it irritates me ... I don't do that though I do jump in as soon as you or someone like you does.

Kyu

[Tiberius]

And it should be clear I consider that to be an invalid argument ... a distro is modular (it has to be) which confers on it a number of advantages and some disadvantages but the fact that other OS's apart from "Linux" can use the very same components inherently means Linux cannot claim them to be it's own and the fact that there are so many distro's which vary considerably in ability and quality means you can't truly make a definitive statement about Linux as a whole unless referring to that which actually is Linux (the kernel).

Point is, when I'm round anyone apart from Richard Stallman, I say "I use Linux" in response to a question about my OS. If I'm round Stallman's place, I'll say "I use GNU/Linux" as I should. I guess I'll have to extend that courtesy to you in future.

Also runs on UNIX ... so not specifically a Linux thing.

Never said it was.

To a degree yes but Windows is designed to work together from the start and sold as a single and supposedly consistent OS. The same would be true of Apple OS I guess (though less so today with OS-X).

How about distros like Ubuntu and Fedora? All the core system features of both systems were built for the individual system. Ubuntu does ship with a number of external programs, but if you disregard those then you have a system that "is designed to work together from the start and sold given away as a supposedly consistent OS."

Why am I arguing it? Because you jump in every time singing the praises of Linux and it irritates me ... I don't do that though I do jump in as soon as you or someone like you does.

Oh the irony.

I first mentioned (with my screenshot) that I had 6 desktops. LonePiper then said "Linux FTW" in response...and then YOU jumped in to defend Windows! Pardon me whilst I laugh at your hypocrisy.

You started this one, not me.

True, I responded by stating that it came with it by default, but you then go into "let's bash Linux mode". If anyone was doing the jumping and praising, it was you.

[Kyuuketsuki]

And it should be clear I consider that to be an invalid argument ... a distro is modular (it has to be) which confers on it a number of advantages and some disadvantages but the fact that other OS's apart from "Linux" can use the very same components inherently means Linux cannot claim them to be it's own and the fact that there are so many distro's which vary considerably in ability and quality means you can't truly make a definitive statement about Linux as a whole unless referring to that which actually is Linux (the kernel).

Point is, when I'm round anyone apart from Richard Stallman, I say "I use Linux" in response to a question about my OS. If I'm round Stallman's place, I'll say "I use GNU/Linux" as I should. I guess I'll have to extend that courtesy to you in future.

You Linuxers make me laugh ... when it suits you to claim Linux is the whole thing, you do, when it suits you to claim it's only the kernel, you don't ... you certainly know how to twist things don't you?

Also runs on UNIX ... so not specifically a Linux thing.

Never said it was.

Maybe but you wouldn't know it from the way you keep "selling" your favourite OS.

To a degree yes but Windows is designed to work together from the start and sold as a single and supposedly consistent OS. The same would be true of Apple OS I guess (though less so today with OS-X).

How about distros like Ubuntu and Fedora? All the core system features of both systems were built for the individual system. Ubuntu does ship with a number of external programs, but if you disregard those then you have a system that "is designed to work together from the start and sold given away as a supposedly consistent OS."

I wouldn't know anything significant about the way they are built I was simply advancing an argument on your claim that Windows was "just a bunch of programs" too.

Why am I arguing it? Because you jump in every time singing the praises of Linux and it irritates me ... I don't do that though I do jump in as soon as you or someone like you does.

Oh the irony.

I first mentioned (with my screenshot) that I had 6 desktops. LonePiper then said "Linux FTW" in response...and then YOU jumped in to defend Windows! Pardon me whilst I laugh at your hypocrisy.

You started this one, not me.

Way to re-interpret the facts big boy ... I was answering LonePiper (at which point it was UTTERLY clear what OS was being promoted) not you!!! THAT is the point I cam in at, but even based on a casual read back, it was entirely obvious (even if unsaid) what your point was (especially once the two of you got together to smugly nod your heads in a virtual corner together).

True, I responded by stating that it came with it by default, but you then go into "let's bash Linux mode". If anyone was doing the jumping and praising, it was you.

Actually a causal reading of my posts more clearly supports my defence of Windows rather than a going into some implicitly psycho bash Linux mode (IMO, typically evangelistic, you're just trying to lower me to your level just like theist do when they try to drag evolution down to the level of a religion)... I don't even want to bash Linux (though I often feel like bashing its proponents).

Kyu

[Tiberius]

In the computer industry, the word "Linux" has multiple meanings. Everyone who has studied any computer science knows that when someone says "I use Linux" they are referring to a Linux-based OS rather than Linux as an OS itself. It's just a word that is used because there are now so many Linux distros that someone could rightly get confused, especially seeing as at the core they are all the same (i.e. no fundamental differences). Also, generally when referencing the actual kernel you add the suffix "kernel", as in the popular phrase "I'm going to go hack the Linux kernel".

It's only twisting when you put some kind of twist on it. You'd think there were some kind of conspiracy going on the way you throw accusations around.

Way to re-interpret the facts big boy ... I was answering LonePiper (at which point it was UTTERLY clear what OS was being promoted) not you!!! THAT is the point I cam in at, but even based on a casual read back, it was entirely obvious (even if unsaid) what your point was (especially once the two of you got together to smugly nod your heads in a virtual corner together).

My point? How the fuck was it my point? I casually mentioned that I actually had 6 desktops (the title of the thread is "Desktops" btw) when I posted a picture of one of them. LonePiper then said "Linux FTW", and you jump in to defend Windows. How did we "get together"? I didn't even respond to his comment about Linux. You really do take paranoia to new levels...

I even offered some nice conversation, saying I thought Microsoft would add it to Windows 8 (I think they probably will as well), and I even inquired whether it was already in 7. You just ignored those attempts at some kind of conversation in order to go back to your petty point about Linux being a kernel, not an OS. Who the fuck cares? Ubuntu is an OS in it's own right, and it comes with that feature by default, as does Fedora, and I would think almost every other distro. If a distro isn't an OS, I don't know what is.

Actually a causal reading of my posts more clearly supports my defence of Windows rather than a going into some implicitly psycho bash Linux mode (IMO, typically evangelistic, you're just trying to lower me to your level just like theist do when they try to drag evolution down to the level of a religion)... I don't even want to bash Linux (though I often feel like bashing its proponents).

Whatever. Someone (not even me) makes a point about Linux rocking for having a certain feature. You instantly jump to defend Windows and start nitpicking about Linux not actually having the feature because it's only a kernel...blah...blah...blah. It's a typical tactic of yours; thrust your point into view and then when someone even does as much as to comment on it, you attack the tiniest part of their position for no reason other than to make yourself feel big.

Well bravo to you.

[Kyuuketsuki]

In the computer industry, the word "Linux" has multiple meanings. Everyone who has studied any computer science knows that when someone says "I use Linux" they are referring to a Linux-based OS rather than Linux as an OS itself. It's just a word that is used because there are now so many Linux distros that someone could rightly get confused, especially seeing as at the core they are all the same (i.e. no fundamental differences). Also, generally when referencing the actual kernel you add the suffix "kernel", as in the popular phrase "I'm going to go hack the Linux kernel".

I know that, but it doesn't make what I said untrue.

It's only twisting when you put some kind of twist on it. You'd think there were some kind of conspiracy going on the way you throw accusations around.

Possibly I've misjudged you but ...

Way to re-interpret the facts big boy ... I was answering LonePiper (at which point it was UTTERLY clear what OS was being promoted) not you!!! THAT is the point I cam in at, but even based on a casual read back, it was entirely obvious (even if unsaid) what your point was (especially once the two of you got together to smugly nod your heads in a virtual corner together).

My point? How the fuck was it my point? I casually mentioned that I actually had 6 desktops (the title of the thread is "Desktops" btw) when I posted a picture of one of them. LonePiper then said "Linux FTW", and you jump in to defend Windows. How did we "get together"? I didn't even respond to his comment about Linux. You really do take paranoia to new levels...

... it's the way you've behaved before, why on Earth would I expect you to do it any differently? You love Linux, at times you appear to breathe Linux ... like most Linux evangelists you want to promote your favourite OS (it's what you guys do).

I even offered some nice conversation, saying I thought Microsoft would add it to Windows 8 (I think they probably will as well), and I even inquired whether it was already in 7. You just ignored those attempts at some kind of conversation in order to go back to your petty point about Linux being a kernel, not an OS. Who the fuck cares? Ubuntu is an OS in it's own right, and it comes with that feature by default, as does Fedora, and I would think almost every other distro. If a distro isn't an OS, I don't know what is.

Maybe you did, I just read it as you thinking MS were going to rip of another Linux idea and maybe they will but let's be honest here ... Linux has had multiple desktops for at least a decade and MS have showen no signs of adopting it so maybe it's not even on their radar.

Actually a causal reading of my posts more clearly supports my defence of Windows rather than a going into some implicitly psycho bash Linux mode (IMO, typically evangelistic, you're just trying to lower me to your level just like theist do when they try to drag evolution down to the level of a religion)... I don't even want to bash Linux (though I often feel like bashing its proponents).

Whatever. Someone (not even me) makes a point about Linux rocking for having a certain feature. You instantly jump to defend Windows and start nitpicking about Linux not actually having the feature because it's only a kernel...blah...blah...blah. It's a typical tactic of yours; thrust your point into view and then when someone even does as much as to comment on it, you attack the tiniest part of their position for no reason other than to make yourself feel big.

We each have our interpretation of events Adrian ... maybe it did happen your way but I happen to be a cynic and I think I hit closer to the mark than you'd care to admit.

Kyu

[Tiberius]

I know that, but it doesn't make what I said untrue.

Course not, but it does matter when people talk about Linux as an OS (referring to their distro) and you try and correct them on it. You've said before you have to be a "techie" (or some similar word) to use Linux, and I fully agree with you. The point is, the kind of people who use Linux are also the kind who know that the the "Linux" part is the kernel. If someone says "Linux FTW", you can make a good bet that they know the kernel is Linux, but that they are only using the Linux name to cover the whole set of distros based off it.

... it's the way you've behaved before, why on Earth would I expect you to do it any differently? You love Linux, at times you appear to breathe Linux ... like most Linux evangelists you want to promote your favourite OS (it's what you guys do).

Yes but the point (again) is that this time I casually made a mention of a Linux desktop feature (without mentioning Linux, I just thought it was relevant). Some other user came along and said "Linux FTW" in response to it. I don't see how anything I did then was somehow promoting my favourite OS. I didn't mention Linux Mint (my distro), I didn't mention Gnome (the desktop manager that lets me use multiple desktops), I just mentioned a feature, and it was the kind of mention you call "in passing". No details or whatever.

I still don't consider myself a Linux evangelist. I just spend years with Windows constantly crashing, the times it lost all my data and I was forced to reinstall, the constant viruses even though I had virus scanning software / spyware scanners. I got to university and someone gives me an Ubuntu Live CD, it felt better, it was faster, easier to use, etc. So I don't consider myself a Linux evangelist, I consider myself "in love" with Linux. When you are "in love" with somebody, you tell everyone, same thing applies. You might call that evangelism (or just darn scary probably), but using Linux over the past 2 years has got rid of so many problems for me whilst simultaneously opening up an entire new world to explore. So it's more of a love affair than anything

Maybe you did, I just read it as you thinking MS were going to rip of another Linux idea and maybe they will but let's be honest here ... Linux has had multiple desktops for at least a decade and MS have showen no signs of adopting it so maybe it's not even on their radar.

I don't give a damn if Microsoft steal ideas. Open Source software was created precisely to share these sorts of things around, so it would be hypocritical of me to think badly if MS decided suddenly to use ext4 as a filesystem, or grub as a bootloader. I would consider these things vast improvements. MS has dominated the market for decades, and the market has reacted by producing competition that have been rather successful of late (the Apple comeback being the biggest player). MS needs to evolve, and it is already in the process of doing this when it comes to software. Just look at the evolution of I.E. Tabbed browsing took a while, but not soon after Google released Chrome, I.E 8 devs said they would implement a "incognito" mode. Competition forces MS to react, and the biggest area they need to react is their OS. I'd love to see some kind of installer for Windows that matches the Linux package manager; it would make people's life so much easier, because software would be spyware/virus free, and only a click away.

We each have our interpretation of events Adrian ... maybe it did happen your way but I happen to be a cynic and I think I hit closer to the mark than you'd care to admit.

Ditto.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'm giving up on this quoting lark ... at least in this discussion.

The point is that the argument is flexible which leads to a kind of technical disingenuousness ... when a Linux distro gets criticised Linux-o-philes can claim it's the distro (that the kernel is really Linux), but when they want they can also flip that on its head. I've seen this in a number of forums in my time.

Maybe you were doing it AOK this time but as I said my experience of our Linux conversations suggest you have an agenda much the same as the kind f agenda I see around forums where there are snide references to Windoze, M$ and (the worst I saw) references to those who use "Windoze" as sheep ... so despite your protestations I have my doubts.

I do (consider you a Linux evangelist) because I cannot see any significant difference between you and them, between you and the Mac evangelists, the BEOS evangelists. I mean yeah I'm sure there are Windows evangelists (and you may well consider me one of them) but I don't think they are all that common because, with evangelist attitude tends to come out of the minority and the one thing Windows is not is in a minority. My attitude is also one that tends to be prevalent in IT departments and like it or not, Windows is far and away the most used OS in corporates because ultimately they just need something that works, that is easy to use and support.

I have no idea why you had so many issues with Windows ... I just don't! Nor do any of the techy's I know ... nor (generally speaking) do my family and even when people do it tends to be because they were technically ignorant or just plain stupid (irresponsible). I honestly have not the BSOD on a Windows desktop PC for maybe 5 years. I have had it on some heavily used servers but then those servers tend to be dealing with very high numbers of users and often bespoke applications (some ported from other OS's).

In love with an OS? Jeez! I'm not in love with Windows ..,.,it's just an OS, I expect it to do a job and it does it.

I don't care if any OS copies any other OS either, I think it just improves competition and I want that ... not only does it make Windows better but it means something better might come along and if it does I'm up for it (been playing with ReactOS lately but it's a long way from release) there for it.

Just about every Linux install system I have seen sucks compared to the Windows install system.

Kyu

[Mandi]

Some of you guys have some pretty neat stuff.

I change frequently, but as of late, I have been using this one:

[LonePiper]

Wow. Sorry guys. I didn't mean to make an argument about this (though I see it's an ongoing one anyway). I just liked the feature of kubuntu which I had not seen in windows before. When I saw Adrian had the same thing, I felt like a "high five" moment.

For the record I changed to linux because I was sick of being expected to pay for an operating system. I loved DOS and windows 3.1, but after that I became disenchanted.
Now I really like linux (at least the distro I am using). It works for me. It does everything I want it to do. It's free.

I felt I had to put my two cents in since it seemed I started this argument. As I've mentioned I'm not nearly techie enough to defend the finer points of linux - I've only changed over relatively recently. So yeah. Um. Sorry.
(Additionally it seems the picture I posted is no longer hosted!)

[Rob]

You are about to post in an old thread that has not been active for more than a month.

Thank you for the complement. -=BUMP=-

A new operating system and a new desktop: