Stephen Fry on the Catholic Church

[Tobie]

An amazing argument by Stephen Fry, taken from the Intelligence Squared debate.

[Annik]

The role that the Catholic Church in the spread of AIDS disgusts me.

[StatCrux]

An amazing argument by Stephen Fry, taken from the Intelligence Squared debate.

"natural and normal" is an interesting expression that he uses, would anyone on here care to define that?

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The role that the Catholic Church in the spread of AIDS disgusts me.

How does sex only within marriage spread AIDS? Anyone having sex outside of marriage is not following Catholic teaching. Are you suggesting that the Catholic church teaches sex outside of marriage without condoms is ok?

[Tobie]

How does sex only within marriage spread AIDS? Anyone having sex outside of marriage is not following Catholic teaching. Are you suggesting that the Catholic church teaches sex outside of marriage without condoms is ok?

You are putting words in her mouth. The Catholic church spread the teaching that the use of condoms increased the incidences of HIV/AIDS, whereas in actual fact, it drastically decreases it.

Like Stephen Fry said, faithfulness will help decrease AIDS, but not if one partner already has AIDS, which wouldn't happen, or if one didn't want to stop enjoying oneself because the catholic church said so, because what expertise or authority does an organisation headed by elderly virgins with a penchant for peadophilia have on sex?

[StatCrux]

How does sex only within marriage spread AIDS? Anyone having sex outside of marriage is not following Catholic teaching. Are you suggesting that the Catholic church teaches sex outside of marriage without condoms is ok?

You are putting words in her mouth. The Catholic church spread the teaching that the use of condoms increased the incidences of HIV/AIDS, whereas in actual fact, it drastically decreases it.

Like Stephen Fry said, faithfulness will help decrease AIDS, but not if one partner already has AIDS, which wouldn't happen, or if one didn't want to stop enjoying oneself because the catholic church said so, because what expertise or authority does an organisation headed by elderly virgins with a penchant for peadophilia have on sex?

So, "enjoying oneself" without the use of condoms contributes to the spread of AIDS, not following Catholic teaching

[Tobie]

You are putting words in her mouth. The Catholic church spread the teaching that the use of condoms increased the incidences of HIV/AIDS, whereas in actual fact, it drastically decreases it.

Like Stephen Fry said, faithfulness will help decrease AIDS, but not if one partner already has AIDS, which wouldn't happen, or if one didn't want to stop enjoying oneself because the catholic church said so, because what expertise or authority does an organisation headed by elderly virgins with a penchant for peadophilia have on sex?

So, "enjoying oneself" without the use of condoms contributes to the spread of AIDS, not following Catholic teaching

Yes, enjoying oneself without condoms will contribute to the spread of AIDS. However, it is perfectly fine to go out and have sex all you like whilst using a condom, as this does not spread AIDS. That is what is against the catholic teaching. Got it yet?

[StatCrux]

So, "enjoying oneself" without the use of condoms contributes to the spread of AIDS, not following Catholic teaching

Yes, enjoying oneself without condoms will contribute to the spread of AIDS. However, it is perfectly fine to go out and have sex all you like whilst using a condom, as this does not spread AIDS. That is what is against the catholic teaching. Got it yet?

So how exactly does following Catholic teaching spread AIDS? If "enjoying oneself" with or without a condom is against Catholic teaching? Are you arguing that people "enjoying" themselves and not using condoms are following Catholic teaching?

[Cyberman]

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse:

The Roman Catholic church encourages sexual abstinence and fidelity to prevent the disease from spreading, but it is a policy that has divided some clergy working with Aids patients.

The pontiff, speaking to journalists on his flight, said the condition was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".

Rebecca Hodes, of the Treatment Action Campaign in South Africa, said that if the Pope was serious about preventing new HIV infections he would focus on promoting wider access to condoms and spreading information about how best to use them.

Hodes, the director of policy, communication and research for the campaign group, added: "Instead, his opposition to condoms conveys that religious dogma is more important to him than the lives of Africans."

Pope distorting scientific evidence about condoms, claims Lancet:

Today's Lancet editorial said the Pope's statement was "outrageous and wildly inaccurate".

It added: "By saying that condoms exacerbate the problem of HIV/Aids, the pope has publicly distorted scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine.

"Whether the pope's error was due to ignorance or a deliberate attempt to manipulate science to support Catholic ideology is unclear ... When any influential person, be it a religious or political leader, makes a false scientific statement that could be devastating to the health of millions of people, they should retract or correct the public record. Anything less from Pope Benedict would be an immense disservice to the public and health advocates, including many thousands of Catholics who work tirelessly to try and prevent the spread of HIV/Aids worldwide."

[Aiza]

^^
The Pope said "If there is no human dimension, if Africans do not help, the problem cannot be overcome by the distribution of prophylactics: on the contrary, they increase it. The solution must have two elements: firstly, bringing out the human dimension of sexuality, that is to say a spiritual and human renewal that would bring with it a new way of behaving towards others, and secondly, true friendship offered above all to those who are suffering, a willingness to make sacrifices and to practise self-denial, to be alongside the suffering."

Chopping off the first part of an "If....then" statement is dishonest to say the least!

The role that the Catholic Church in the spread of AIDS disgusts me.

And yet Catholic nations in Africa have lower rates of HIV than Protestant. I wonder what "role" the Catholic Church plays? Do you have any evidence of this role?

And throwing condoms at the problem has not yet been shown to work either:

Although condom use has also likely contributed to HIV decline in some generalized epidemics, there is no evidence of a primary role.

http://www.ajabuafrica.com/Images/HIV-%2...cience.pdf

Consistent use of condoms has been shown to reduce the efficiency of transmission of HIV and various other sexually transmitted infections, but the perception that using condoms can reduce the risk of HIV infection may have contributed to increases in inconsistent use, which has minimal protective effect, as well as to a possible neglect of the risks of having multiple sexual partners.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1397752/

What has been shown to really work in reducing rates of HIV in Africa? Responsible+loving sexuality, as the Church advocates:

Uganda provides the clearest example that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is preventable if populations are mobilized to avoid risk. Despite limited resources, Uganda has shown a 70% decline in HIV prevalence since the early 1990s, linked to a 60%reduction in casual sex. The response in Uganda appears to be distinctively associated with communication about acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) through social networks. Despite substantial condom use and promotion of biomedical approaches, other African countries have shown neither similar behavioral responses nor HIV prevalence declines of the same scale- The Ugandan success is equivalent to a vaccine of 80% effectiveness. Its replication will require changes in global HIV/AIDS intervention policies and their evaluation.

http://alexandria.healthlibrary.ca/docum...ience).pdf

Its also worth noting that the Catholic Church provides some 25% of all healthcare worldwide to those with HIV/AIDS, up to 100% in rural areas in particular.

But sure, the AIDS epidemic is all the fault of us Catholics.

[StatCrux]

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse:

The Roman Catholic church encourages sexual abstinence and fidelity to prevent the disease from spreading, but it is a policy that has divided some clergy working with Aids patients.

The pontiff, speaking to journalists on his flight, said the condition was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".

Rebecca Hodes, of the Treatment Action Campaign in South Africa, said that if the Pope was serious about preventing new HIV infections he would focus on promoting wider access to condoms and spreading information about how best to use them.

Hodes, the director of policy, communication and research for the campaign group, added: "Instead, his opposition to condoms conveys that religious dogma is more important to him than the lives of Africans."

Pope distorting scientific evidence about condoms, claims Lancet:

Today's Lancet editorial said the Pope's statement was "outrageous and wildly inaccurate".

It added: "By saying that condoms exacerbate the problem of HIV/Aids, the pope has publicly distorted scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine.

"Whether the pope's error was due to ignorance or a deliberate attempt to manipulate science to support Catholic ideology is unclear ... When any influential person, be it a religious or political leader, makes a false scientific statement that could be devastating to the health of millions of people, they should retract or correct the public record. Anything less from Pope Benedict would be an immense disservice to the public and health advocates, including many thousands of Catholics who work tirelessly to try and prevent the spread of HIV/Aids worldwide."

That is a total appeal to authority, Lancet editorial? Guess they are the magisterium of science