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Stephen Fry on the Catholic Church
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 (June 7, 2012 at 6:21 pm)StatCrux Wrote: "natural and normal" is an interesting expression that he uses, would anyone on here care to define that? 'Natural' means 'occuring in nature'. 'Normal' in this context appears to mean 'common'. He could have chosen his words more explicitly but he gets his meaning across, I think.
Sum ergo sum
 RE: Stephen Fry on the Catholic Church
June 7, 2012 at 7:15 pm
(This post was last modified: June 7, 2012 at 7:29 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
(June 7, 2012 at 5:57 pm)Annik Wrote: The role that the Catholic Church in the spread of AIDS disgusts me. Me too,but having been raised Catholic, it does not surprise me in the least Can't wait to see the response(s) from our resident Catholic aplologists.. 00000000000000000000000000000 Addendum: I just did. I'm no longer angry or contemptuous of the people who defend the Church,merely saddened by the blind faith and tiny little minds. The Pope made a statement which is demonstrably false,yet has refused to retract it. In declining to do so, what may have been simple ignorance became a lie of omission,putting the lives of many thousands at risk. THAT is despicable and morally bankrupt in my opinion. Strawman arguments about doctrine are irrelevant, IT IS NOT OK TO LIE TO PROTECT DOCTRINE,PERIOD.,  (June 7, 2012 at 7:10 pm)StatCrux Wrote:(June 7, 2012 at 7:01 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse: So you decided to retaliate with a total ad hominem.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
  (June 7, 2012 at 7:15 pm)padraic Wrote: Addendum: I just did. I'm no longer angry or contemptuous of the people who defend the Church,merely saddened by the blind faith and tiny little minds. The Pope made a statement which is demonstrably false,yet has refused to retract it. In declining to do so, what may have been simple ignorance became a lie of omission,putting the lives of many thousands at risk. THAT is despicable and morally bankrupt in my opinion. Strawman arguments about doctrine are irrelevant, IT IS NOT OK TO LIE TO PROTECT DOCTRINE,PERIOD., He did not. He said, again: "If there is no human dimension, if Africans do not help, the problem cannot be overcome by the distribution of prophylactics: on the contrary, they increase it. The solution must have two elements: firstly, bringing out the human dimension of sexuality, that is to say a spiritual and human renewal that would bring with it a new way of behaving towards others, and secondly, true friendship offered above all to those who are suffering, a willingness to make sacrifices and to practise self-denial, to be alongside the suffering." This has been shown via scientific research which shows 1) Condom usage not being linked to a reduction in the HIV epidemic in Africa; and Protestant nations in particular having higher rates of HIV, on average, than Catholic ones. 2) Responsible sexuality being linked to a reduction in the HIV epidemic in Uganda, and healthcare being linked to an improvement of quality of life for those already living with HIV. 3) Research into risk compensation showing that a decrease in percieved risk leads to an increase in risky behavior. It only becomes a "lie" if you chop off the first half of his sentence and take the quote out of context. Focusing on the human element of caring for others is absolutely what is most important.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning Woe to the serpent and rescue to man. Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection; Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead; Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection, Measure your aid by the depth of our need. Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying, Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod; Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying, Mary Immaculate, Mother of God. 
 (June 7, 2012 at 8:35 pm)Aiza Wrote:(June 7, 2012 at 7:15 pm)padraic Wrote: Addendum: I just did. I'm no longer angry or contemptuous of the people who defend the Church,merely saddened by the blind faith and tiny little minds. The Pope made a statement which is demonstrably false,yet has refused to retract it. In declining to do so, what may have been simple ignorance became a lie of omission,putting the lives of many thousands at risk. THAT is despicable and morally bankrupt in my opinion. Strawman arguments about doctrine are irrelevant, IT IS NOT OK TO LIE TO PROTECT DOCTRINE,PERIOD., Stop the fucking bullshit, does the catholic church advocate the use of condoms or not? Additionally, what is the catholic church's position on whether condoms prevent or enable the spread of HIV? Those two questions are the only important ones in this whole argument. Once you've stated "your" church's position on this we'll examine the evidence and statistics - when you provide credible citations. (June 7, 2012 at 8:59 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Stop the fucking bullshit, does the catholic church advocate the use of condoms or not? Additionally, what is the catholic church's position on whether condoms prevent or enable the spread of HIV? Those two questions are the only important ones in this whole argument. Once you've stated "your" church's position on this we'll examine the evidence and statistics - when you provide credible citations. No, the Catholic Church does not "advocate" the use of condoms, and the Catholic Church has no position at all on the relationship between condoms and the spread of HIV. Re: your weird "citation needed" remarks, all citations were given in http://atheistforums.org/thread-13242-po...#pid296323
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning Woe to the serpent and rescue to man. Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection; Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead; Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection, Measure your aid by the depth of our need. Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying, Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod; Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying, Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
 (June 7, 2012 at 8:35 pm)Aiza Wrote:(June 7, 2012 at 7:15 pm)padraic Wrote: Addendum: I just did. I'm no longer angry or contemptuous of the people who defend the Church,merely saddened by the blind faith and tiny little minds. The Pope made a statement which is demonstrably false,yet has refused to retract it. In declining to do so, what may have been simple ignorance became a lie of omission,putting the lives of many thousands at risk. THAT is despicable and morally bankrupt in my opinion. Strawman arguments about doctrine are irrelevant, IT IS NOT OK TO LIE TO PROTECT DOCTRINE,PERIOD., The statement is still incorrect, despite the "if" clause, unless you or the catholic church can show that condom use directly can cause an increase in the instances of HIV. No-one is saying that just throwing condoms at them will suddenly cause a decrease in HIV, everyone knows that you need to teach people how to use them properly and safely. The Catholic "Abstinence and Fidelity" stuff will decrease HIV, but that only applies to people in a exclusive, committed relationship.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
 (June 7, 2012 at 6:21 pm)StatCrux Wrote: "natural and normal" is an interesting expression that he uses, would anyone on here care to define that? Is Google broken?
"How is it that a lame man does not annoy us while a lame mind does? Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping." - Pascal
(June 8, 2012 at 12:26 am)Aiza Wrote:(June 7, 2012 at 8:59 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Stop the fucking bullshit, does the catholic church advocate the use of condoms or not? Additionally, what is the catholic church's position on whether condoms prevent or enable the spread of HIV? Those two questions are the only important ones in this whole argument. Once you've stated "your" church's position on this we'll examine the evidence and statistics - when you provide credible citations. So the Catholic church doesn't care if condoms help stop the spread of aids or not? It's all about ensuring that people don't use them, regardless of the facts? While it is true that condoms alone will not prevent the spread of aids, their use, combined with real world education that doesn't include the prejudice of any religious organisation, will most certainly stem the spread of HIV. You can educate people on healthy, safe relationships, without having God anywhere in the conversation. When every position hinges on what is permitted by doctrine, then you have no place telling people how to tackle problems that are material in nature. Just to reinforce what I am saying - take God out of the equation and these problems can be addressed with proper research, education and preventative measures - none of which need any spiritual or supernatural intervention. |
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