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June 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 5:54 pm by Drich.)
(June 9, 2012 at 1:38 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: On the circle of the earth passage, I have this to quote from a recent book:
Quote:What was the shape of the earth according to the Bible? Isaiah 40:22 provides the answer: "It is he that sitteth upon the circle (Hebrew, chug) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." Because this passage mentions "the circle of the earth," some people interpret it as a description of a spherical earth. But they are ignoring the context of the verse that has nothing in it implying sphericity, only "tent-icity," since God "sits upon the circle" and spreads heaven out like a "tent to dwell in." The Hebrew word chug has a primary meaning of "circle" and no lexicon of ancient Hebrew offers "sphere" as a meaning for chug. Moreover, see the previous section on Mesopotamian cosmology for references to "circle of the earth," and other phrases they employed with "circle" in them to depict the earth, including the Babylonian map of the world that depicts the limits of the flat earth's surface as two concentric circles. Therefore, the phrase "circle of the earth" is not unique at all and was already in use by flat-earth-believing Mesopotamians long before the book of Isaiah was written. Elsewhere in Isaiah, the most the author says of the earth is that God "spread it out" (literally pounded or flattened it out) at creation (Isaiah 42:5 and 44:24). So there does not appear to be a single verse in the Bible that depicts the earth as a sphere.-
John W. Loftus. The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails (Kindle Locations 1518-1526). Kindle Edition.
Perhaps the problem is Mr. Loftus was looking up the wrong word. The Word acconding to Strong Concordance is:chuwg
Gesenius's Lexicon defines it as Circle, Sphere, Compass/Use of the Arch or vault of the Sky.
(June 9, 2012 at 8:12 am)Tobie Wrote: 1) Like Tegh posted, there are 2 hebrew words for circle, one meaning circle one meaning sphere. In this case, the word meaning circle is used. Even if the word meaning sphere was used, it would still be wrong, as the actual shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid. I'd expect a "close enough for the time" response for this point, but seeming as christians believe their book is handed down from god, who is all-knowing, they should be able to get it correct.
June 9, 2012 at 5:55 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm by Tobie.)
(June 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 9, 2012 at 1:38 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: On the circle of the earth passage, I have this to quote from a recent book:
Perhaps the problem is Mr. Loftus was looking up the wrong word. The Word acconding to Strong Concordance is:chuwg
Gesenius's Lexicon defines it as Circle, Sphere, Compass/Use of the Arch or vault of the Sky.
Still doesn't mean oblate spheroid, does it, Drich? Knowing the shape of the earth shouldn't be a big stretch for god, seeming as you believe he created the bloody thing.
Also, you ignore the section in the link titled "Biblical usage". It does not say sphere in there, so your point is irrelevant.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
(June 9, 2012 at 1:38 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: On the circle of the earth passage, I have this to quote from a recent book:
Perhaps the problem is Mr. Loftus was looking up the wrong word. The Word acconding to Strong Concordance is:chuwg
Gesenius's Lexicon defines it as Circle, Sphere, Compass/Use of the Arch or vault of the Sky.
(June 9, 2012 at 8:12 am)Tobie Wrote: 1) Like Tegh posted, there are 2 hebrew words for circle, one meaning circle one meaning sphere. In this case, the word meaning circle is used. Even if the word meaning sphere was used, it would still be wrong, as the actual shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid. I'd expect a "close enough for the time" response for this point, but seeming as christians believe their book is handed down from god, who is all-knowing, they should be able to get it correct.
June 9, 2012 at 6:04 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 6:07 pm by Drich.)
(June 9, 2012 at 5:48 pm)libalchris Wrote: Isaiah uses the Hebrew word for ball at one point in the book, which would have been much more suiting if he was referring to earth as a sphere (never mind the fact that it apparently didn't convince anyone at that time who believed Isaiah that the earth was spherical.) The word Isaiah uses is used one other time in the old testament (Proverbs 8:27) and refers to a flat disk.
Until you look at what the actual word means. tsĕnephah Pronunciation tsen·ā·fä' (Key)
Root Word (Etymology)
From צָנַף (H6801)
1) winding, thing wrapped, ball
The word describes more how the object is made, rather than the shape. To uuse this word to descibe the Earth is to say it is like a big ball of yarn.
Quote:1) Like Tegh posted, there are 2 hebrew words for circle, one meaning circle one meaning sphere. In this case, the word meaning circle is used. Even if the word meaning sphere was used, it would still be wrong, as the actual shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid. I'd expect a "close enough for the time" response for this point, but seeming as christians believe their book is handed down from god, who is all-knowing, they should be able to get it correct.
As I have already pointed out this is false.
[/quote]
Quote:Oh you beat me to it lol. Remember to note that Isaiah did use the word for ball as the word for ball at another place in Isaiah. So it's not as though the word wasn't familiar to him. And, as I said earlier in this post, the word he used was used at another place in the old testament as a flat circle.
This is the passage you are talking about:Isa 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball into a large country there shalt thou die and there the chariotsof thy glory [shall be] the shame of thy lord's house.
(June 9, 2012 at 5:59 pm)libalchris Wrote:
(June 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm)Drich Wrote:
Perhaps the problem is Mr. Loftus was looking up the wrong word. The Word acconding to Strong Concordance is:chuwg
Gesenius's Lexicon defines it as Circle, Sphere, Compass/Use of the Arch or vault of the Sky.
June 9, 2012 at 6:09 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 6:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So, just to interject, I'm starting to think that maybe you feel that scriptures have it right somewhere, that you can point to this or that and say "see?".
Care to point me in the direction of a highlights reel? The earth being a sphere has been believed by other cultures (and sometimes by cultures that previously believed it was a turtle) throughout history. Not that any of them had any actual idea what the shape of the earth was, but, a broken clock is wrong twice a day.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
June 9, 2012 at 6:10 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 6:11 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(June 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 9, 2012 at 1:38 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: On the circle of the earth passage, I have this to quote from a recent book:
Perhaps the problem is Mr. Loftus was looking up the wrong word. The Word acconding to Strong Concordance is:chuwg
Gesenius's Lexicon defines it as Circle, Sphere, Compass/Use of the Arch or vault of the Sky.
...
I would be interested in how Genenius came to the conclusion that it can mean "sphere." Did he see the Isaiah passage in question and come to the conclusion that "...well, chuwg/chug [same word] certainly means sphere here because the Bible can't contradict reality"?
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q...References
Drich, you're also ignoring the context of the verse too. As my quotation explained, it makes more sense to read it as describing a flat earth in the context of the verse
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
(June 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm)Drich Wrote: Perhaps the problem is Mr. Loftus was looking up the wrong word. The Word acconding to Strong Concordance is:chuwg
Gesenius's Lexicon defines it as Circle, Sphere, Compass/Use of the Arch or vault of the Sky.
Still doesn't mean oblate spheroid, does it, Drich? Knowing the shape of the earth shouldn't be a big stretch for god, seeming as you believe he created the bloody thing.
Also, you ignore the section in the link titled "Biblical usage". It does not say sphere in there, so your point is irrelevant.
So who was the OT written to? This generation or the last who coined the term 'oblate Spheroid' and assigned it to describe the Earth's shape? Or men who lived 2500 years ago? Would it stand to reason that if God had Isaiha use words that would alienate men for 2500 years, that a great majority would be lost that did not have to be? Wouldn't it be more sensable for a more mordern man make the jump in understanding that one lived 2500 years ago could not?
June 9, 2012 at 6:16 pm (This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 6:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Men who lived 2500 years ago would have understood particle physics or a nuclear reactor had a competent tutor explained it to them. Don't even try that shit...
Your ancestors weren't complete fucking morons, they just didn't have the right tools..ffs.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
