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Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
#11
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
Emotional pressure? This arguement may work with the powerless (kids brought up in the religious tradition based on the geograhpical accident of his/her birth). but not with those that have the abitliy to reason and question. It's called indocrtination. Is your use of emotional pressure a euphemism for indoctrincation?

It must be, otherswise you would have to picture a scene repeated globaly (and through generations) where parents sit down with a five year old and explain all the different pros and cons of different religions and then asking the tot to choose one. Let's ignore the fact that the five year old does not have the reasoning capability to choose one, or choose all. The cross, or crescent, or star of david (insert traditional religious symbol here) is ubiquitous in this kid's life, yet you would ask a five year old choose one. The limited reasoning capabilty of the five year old results in: I'm going to do whaterver the big people do (mom and dad), becasue it would really suck not to eat. Some choice. You can apply this to a ten year old, a fourteen year old, but what happens with an eighteen year old that has independent access to a library?

If there were a world wide maxim that dictated that no person could be indoctrinated into the religion of his/her parents and that there was also no social or civil retribution involved until he/she was 25 years old then I maintain that religion as we know it would disappear quickly. Let's add to the experiment that all religions are taught equally throughout the child's education process. Being the 'one' true religion would lose meaning if not reinforced by geographical tradition. What then?
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#12
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
(June 11, 2012 at 5:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's some pretty vitriolic shit there Mystic, what precisely do you think the quran is teaching with that verse?

Well they were at war with people whom started the fight against them, so it's saying those whom turn on their backs and go back to fighting you, you can kill them, but those whom decide not to fight you either because their people have an alliance with you or their hearts shrink for killing their own people, then don't kill them, then it's summarized so no one misunderstands "therefore if they withdraw from you (leave the religion) and do not fight you rather offer you peace, then there is no way against them"
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#13
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
(June 11, 2012 at 4:00 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Some more pressure is that it takes a bit of strength in character to resist the pressure, but the Quran condemns pride and emphasizes on humbling oneself to God's revelations/signs/verses. It emphasizes on being broken by God's words. All this adds to the emotional pressure.

It's like Mohammad understood the psychology of people very well and knew how to manipulate it in his favour. Along with that is the showing of the "chosen" status of Prophets, making it seem like Mohammad is of this high character, and that surely he must be telling the truth, being this special. Which of course is circular reasoning, but when it comes to appealing to emotion, circular reasoning works often.

As I have quipped many times, give me the power to torture and kill people and in 20 years I will have multitudes worshiping a toaster, especially if all I care about is the outward show of conformity.

"All praise the warmer of the staff of life!!! He can even make muffins!"
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#14
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
:bows head: "Par-kay"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#15
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
Heretic!
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#16
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)



You're missing several things, Mystic.

First, the greatest determinant of faith is one's immediate family, and one's immediate culture. Religious truths are efficiently communicated this way because our species evolved for this to be so. When Clovis points were the best hunting technology, those humans who were best able to transmit that technology to their children were the most successful. Transmitting beliefs from culture to individual, and from parents to child, works because that efficient transmission is of great benefit to our species.

Second, you're assuming the form we have it in now is the form it started out as. Religious technology, just like any other, evolves through a process of selection, selective refinement, and innovation. Just like any other set of memes, those memes that work become more common, becoming orthodoxy, and those that don't simply disappear. Those sayings of the Hadith which were effective were repeated more often than those that weren't. And those aspects of the faith which reinforced the power of those in control were themselves reinforced by those in control.

Take the Hadith for example. Why do we even have the Hadith if the Quran is what they say it is? The Hadith is like the Talmud. It's not officially true, but by determining how we interpret what is true, it effectively is.

[Image: 2012-02-22.png]


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#17
RE: Some reasons why Quran is so persuasive (to many people)
(June 11, 2012 at 5:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(June 11, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: Death penalty and life imprisonment for apostasy is pretty persuasive.

The Quran actually teaches opposite to that.

Not trying to be funny, but since when do religious leaders bother about what their holy books actually say?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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