Feigned indignation and false maryterdom complex

[Brian37]

Ok guys this thread stems from posts made here. But also human history in general. The point of it is to try to get BOTH atheists and theists over the stupid fear of word choice.

Outside this thread in real history the bruised ego in human evolution has created horrible societies that when offended oppress the ones that have offended them. In Iran you cannot only not offend the government, you cannot offend Shiite Islam. In North Korea you cannot offend the state.

But on a website like this I really don't see what either an atheist or theist has to fear. It not only welcomes both atheists and theists, it allows us to respond to each other, and has an ignore option if we do not like someone. It has no power to have anyone killed or arrested, but only the power to boot someone off.

I cannot see a better safe haven for both the atheist and the theist to duke it out without fear of the other. We in the west take it for granted that we will always be able say what we want, I think that is a mistake.

Every time we debate including ridicule or blasphemy or even insults WE are proving that we can have a verbal fight without it coming to real violence. That is something far too many countries, especially in Africa and in in the Middle East do not have the luxury of.

The non Shiites and non Muslims living in Iran have the right to bitch about being oppressed. Any North Korean who has escaped can tell you what oppression is.

So I really DO get a severe lip twitch when someone bitches about having their claims picked on claiming that being offended is some sort of crime.

Talk to the women of Afghanistan who get beaten for merely having their veil fall off. THAT IS OFFENSIVE. The worst anyone here has to worry about is a "bullshit" or a "fuck you", including me.

So my advice to both atheists and theists who value taboos as a solution, is to grow up. We have the luxury of protection of dissent and none of us can be arrested for offending each other.

And I am not writing any of this just because of my recent history here. I have had this beef many times before with well intended people long before I got here.

If we all accept that there are no real weapons being used to really murder people here. And we all agree that none of us, no matter what we say to each other is a cause to call for violence or to actually act out in violence, then no one should complain about merely being offended.

There are places where BOTH a Christian and and atheist, just for the mere act of not picking the right club or expressing openly a different club can get you arrested or murdered.

So again, lets all be adults here and not be so self centered as to think a bruised ego is the worst thing in the world. People who don't want their egos bruised are the ones who set up fascist states and fascist theocracies.

I have never been a fan of the idea that civility should include always avoiding conflict and never offending anyone.

"Don't offend me" Is the demand of North Korea. "Don't offend me" is the demand of Iran and the Imams who control it.

Every time we say "fuck you" to each other and no one dies, we show the real assholes what civility is and what free speech is.

So please people, please separate issues here. We can box and still after that boxing like each other. I do not want to live in a society that plays though or morality police, that is what they do.

And again, I cannot state it enough. I have family and friends and co-workers who believe things and make claims that make me want to pull my hair out. And I damned sure know that people, both atheists and theists here have said "that guy is a fucking asshole" about me.

BUT THAT IS WHAT MAKES US CIVIL, not setting up taboos, but the ability to still bitch and complain knowing in reality that everyone is going to bed at night in one piece. We have that luxury, far too many in the world do not.

"The first person to hurl an insult instead of a stone started civilization" Freud.

LETS DUKE IT OUT AND STOP BITCHING ABOUT EGOS BEING BRUISED.

No one is going to die or be arrested so quit your bitching about others bitching and even bitch about this post. But do not pretend that life always owes you peaches and cream. There are REAL people in REAL places who are REAL victims. None of us here are, not you, not me, no one.

I am not owed kind words myself and I am not expecting everyone here to like me or only say nice things about me. But that is reality and that is the price you pay for living in societies that allow for dissent and disagreement. None of us, if we value our own rights, have any right to demand the right to be free from being offended.

[FallentoReason]

Every time we debate including ridicule or blasphemy or even insults WE are proving that we can have a verbal fight without it coming to real violence. That is something far too many countries, especially in Africa and in in the Middle East do not have the luxury of.

I just fail to see why you see foul language as necessary...

[Brian37]

Every time we debate including ridicule or blasphemy or even insults WE are proving that we can have a verbal fight without it coming to real violence. That is something far too many countries, especially in Africa and in in the Middle East do not have the luxury of.

I just fail to see why you see foul language as necessary...

And I fail to see why it should always be censored?

Instead of making it a moral issue or either/or issue, which is what fascist states set up, try seeing as a context and comfort issue.

Otherwise we get stuck with "who gets to decide". I am not going to hand that kind of power over to another human. I hate that mentality and it is quite dangerous to the freedom of anyone of any position.

Context.

If I am at a fancy wedding or formal dinner, no. If I am simply hanging out with buddies or posting at a board, like this one, which does not ban cussing, then I think the right thing in this context is to post the way you are comfortable with doing, and if you don't like how someone else posts, don't read their posts or put them on ignore.

That is the best anyone can do otherwise we become a society that can be lead into the very fascism we know neither of us would want to live under.

And the other absurdity of "never" as a solution would be cuss words and slurs used in human history. I think it would be absurd to try to tell the story about Hitler without using the word "Juden" or displaying the horrible image of the dead bodies or the Swhastica.

Without those horrible images we as a species could not remind ourselves as to what we should not do.

And in humor. People who hate something like South Park completely miss the point of that show. It does not promote bigotry. It's entire point is to say to all of humanity, DAMN IT, LAUGH AT YOURSELVES!

So this isn't simply about one post or one person. This cuts to the core of how we want to go about when trying to achieve civility. I do not see how civility is achieved by making demands on a complex society. We are not civil because we are nice to each other all the time. We are civil because we agree in the common law of you can say what you want until or unless it is an act of violence, or a call to violence.

That is the only viable solution I see as working. If we all like to bitch then we have to allow others to bitch while keeping in mind that we still have the common ground that none of us want to be harmed. I am happy with being insulted because I still get to go to bed at night in one piece.

[The Grand Nudger]

Foul language is incredibly expressive. Somebodies gotta root for the f-word....

for example.

-Well, I personally don't believe that.

-Holy fucking christ, that is the single-most idiotic goddamned thing I've ever heard.

Which of these two statements do you imagine best describes my internal reaction to certain statements which shall not be elaborated upon?

[Tempus]

Insults rarely contribute anything to a discussion. Typically they just create bad blood between people and bad blood between people can lead to violence. I don't think beliefs, simply by virtue of being held strongly, deserve respect or even tolerance. And yet, I'm perfectly capable of not respecting an opinion / belief while maintaining civility (for the most part). If I want people to see things my way, I use tact, civility and communicate clearly. Being a cunt adds nothing to your position. The greatest enemy to understanding and change of opinion during debate, in my opinion, is when people are caught up in winning the argument, rather than being right. This happens when people are angry at their opponent; they want to beat them.

Do I think people shouldn't be allowed to insult? No. I certainly don't want criticism of either side on any issue silenced and I particularly enjoy creative insults. I just think there's a difference between being politically correct and being an asshole. The only thing anger does in arguments is make people more biased.

[Brian37]

Foul language is incredibly expressive. Somebodies gotta root for the f-word....

for example.

-Well, I personally don't believe that.

-Holy fucking christ, that is the single-most idiotic goddamned thing I've ever heard

Which of these two statements do you imagine best describes my internal reaction to certain statements which shall not be elaborated upon?

And the problem with the "you get more flies with honey" crap as an absolute is that there will always be some fascist moron, no matter how fucking polite you are, is going to get offended just by your mere objection.

So if you think I look like a clown for using the word "fuck" isn't that part of your ability to dissent itself?

You do realize that there are theists whom by the mere word "atheist" get offended. To them saying "atheist" without saying "fuck your god" is the same thing.

The point is that we do not live in a perfect world and none of us are clones of each other.

And this post itself IS an exercise in civility. Otherwise we'd get to arrest or murder each other because we disagree.

And what does that say about the person who claims to be trying to take the moral high ground to be stuck on words rather than the message itself?

If for example the following two sentences mean the same thing:

"Muslim men should not treat their women as property"

VS

"Fuck Muslim men who treat their women as property"

Is it important I not use the word "fuck" or is it more important that women not be treated like property? Because the men who do treat women like property would not care if you are cussing or not, you are threatening their childish insecurities.

You only have a contextual argument, not an absolute one.

[Minimalist]

The jesus freaks pull out the "I'm offended" card when they find that their holy drivel makes no impact and they get told off.

Personally, I'm sick of their shit. Most of them don't want to learn anything.

[Autumnlicious]

Foul language is everywhere. Use carefully, it makes one compelling.

Used carelessly, and you become quite boorish.

Are you a boor?

Or are you dealing with such?

Positive answers to either or both means something's wrong. The latter only because boors don't change even if you use vitriol.

I know -- I arrived on this forum roughly three years ago. Boy was I an offensive young atheist looking for a challenge. I like to imagine I've mellowed out, but most days I end up typing an angry response, pausing, and closing the tab without submitting.

Why?

Because "You're a monstrous idiot for X,Y,Z and a fucking moron" doesn't work as well as "X,Y,Z are inconsistent and wrong. Your argument is weak".

One becomes a contest of personalities, the other, an observation. Harder to fight the latter, while the former is easier to react to -- perhaps because we are emotional beings.

[Brian37]

Insults rarely contribute anything to a discussion

"Atheist" is a word, and is viewed as an insult to many theists, so wrong again.

You view an insult as merely being a word, but it isn't one word, it can be a person's perception that an idea or something that goes against their social norms can "insult" them.

I have pointed out in many cultures in many religions arranged marriages are a social norm. If that girl refuses to marry the man that that family picked for them, they don't have to say "fuck you I am not going to marry them". Just saying "I am not going to marry them" is viewed as an insult on the honor of the family.

So insults are not mere words, they can be concepts or ideas that threaten someones social norms.

If we banned cussing in every context we would not have great comedians like George Carlin,

I do not object to arguments of context as to when and where cussing is appropriate. I do object to any solution that uses "never". Not just on the issue of words, but anything in life. Nothing in life is black or white or either/or.

Words in general can only be a choice and context issue.

---

Foul language is everywhere. Use carefully, it makes one compelling.

Used carelessly, and you become quite boorish.

Are you a boor?

Or are you dealing with such?

Positive answers to either or both means something's wrong. The latter only because boors don't change even if you use vitriol.

I know -- I arrived on this forum roughly three years ago. Boy was I an offensive young atheist looking for a challenge. I like to imagine I've mellowed out, but most days I end up typing an angry response, pausing, and closing the tab without submitting.

Why?

Because "You're a monstrous idiot for X,Y,Z and a fucking moron" doesn't work as well as "X,Y,Z are inconsistent and wrong. Your argument is weak".

One becomes a contest of personalities, the other, an observation. Harder to fight the latter, while the former is easier to react to -- perhaps because we are emotional beings.

Not sure what your use of the word "boor" is supposed to mean, but I do agree that we are emotional beings. But what does that have to do with cussing? And what is wrong with having emotions?

If you are trying to advise me to "mellow out" again, that is a comfort issue. Since you are not me and I am not you it can only be a comfort issue.

ANOTHER example and WITHOUT cussing.

I prefer people don't say "bless you to me". But I would have absolutely no right to demand people never say it within my earshot. And sometimes my friends do it to tease me because they know I am an atheist, should I get offended even then?

People have the right not to cuss and if they don't want to no one should force them to. But no one has the right to tell me not to outside the mods and rules of this board.

And with the ignore option it makes this entire discussion absurd.

[Brian37]

The jesus freaks pull out the "I'm offended" card when they find that their holy drivel makes no impact and they get told off.

Personally, I'm sick of their shit. Most of them don't want to learn anything.

Thanks for providing me another example.

Just saying "Jesus freaks" even if you leave out "I am sick of their shit", "Jesus freaks" alone would insult them.

Here is what miffs me about the well intended politically correct, there are even Christians that do accept and would be on our side by calling other Christians "Jesus freaks" and are as "sick of their shit" as we are.

I say to both atheists and believers don't get stuck on words and don't assume hate when you have disagreement.

I hate more demands of censorship than I would a Christian who likes me but is trying to argue that I am going to burn in hell. Sure, someone threatening me with hell is offensive to me, but not because the person claimed it, or even that it may personally offend me, the real offense to me is that there simply isn't any evidence for a hell to be frightened of.

My co workers alone are all some degree of believer and most of them literally believe that I am going to burn in hell and they do like me and don't want to see me suffer. It isnt their right to claim that that offends me, it is their lack of evidence that does.

But I have upon occasion when they have brought up the issue and I give them a blunt answer have said "You have a right to your opinion, but don't insult my god" and I even do that without cussing and they still get offended.

When they do that I get the image of a midget standing spread eagle in front of the Terminator shouting "Dont pick on my God, you might hurt him".

I think to myself "how can I, if we are going by your claim that your claimed deity is all powerful, then how can a finite puny person like me possibly hurt a god with mere words"?

And that brings me back to "insult" and "cussing". While words do have power, they are only limited to the power the person receiving them gives them.