Can Creator create morality from nothing?

[Mystic]

I think the answer to this question is no. The Euthyphro dilemma shows that if God commands what he wants of morality, then, morality would be arbitrary. He can command rape and that would be moral. The same can be true if he can create morality out of nothing, he can create our moral instincts that rape is moral. But what we know of morality at least I would argue is that it's not arbitrary. I mean by morality, objective morality, and not in the other sense.

Now from this, I think it would be rational to conclude, morality must be eternal. The reason is that if God can't create morality from nothing, then neither can evolution. I think this is rational to conclude.

The premises are as follows:

(1) If God exists, he cannot create morality when morality didn't exist.
(2) If God cannot create morality when morality didn't exist, then neither can evolution.
(3) Therefore if morality were to be real/objective/non-delusion, it would be eternal.
(4) Objective morality exist.
(5) Therefore Objective morality is eternal.

[Anomalocaris]

You are trying too hard.

[Mystic]

You are trying too hard.

Come on bro...which premise do you dispute?

[Autumnlicious]

I'll bite.

(1) If God exists, he cannot create morality when morality didn't exist.

Double negative. Rephrased:
(1) If God exists, he can create morality when morality did exist.

This is a nonsensical premise -- how can god create what is already there?

(2) If God cannot create morality when morality didn't exist, then neither can evolution.

Faulty premise -- you have not established that evolutionary derived 'morals' are dependent on God creating morality.

For all you know, codified behaviors are part of an evolution of a social species, which would make said "morality" an emergent property of said social specie evolution.

(3) Therefore if morality were to be real/objective/non-delusion, it would be eternal.

How is "morality" a coherent object that persists? How is it inherited and yet some form of "eternal" state?

Also, how does this premise operate while this one cannot:
(3) If morality is a temporary object formed within the mind of an individual, then morality is around as long as that individual is around.
(4) As long as they're are beings who can hold "morality" in their mind, then morality (as a concept) is more persistent and possibly eternal if the existence of a being to carry the concept of morality is eternally assured.

(4) Objective morality exist.

I'm not gonna even poke this one...

(5) Therefore Objective morality is eternal.

Or simply a nonexistent entity that appears only in the minds of beings capable of conceiving of "morality" and with enough beings that can carry a continuation of said "morals" makes it potentially eternal (that is, until we kill all higher level life).

[Mystic]

I'll bite.

(1) If God exists, he cannot create morality when morality didn't exist.

Double negative. Rephrased:
(1) If God exists, he can create morality when morality did exist.

This is a nonsensical premise -- how can god create what is already there?

Ok I will rephrase the statement:

God cannot create morality.

Faulty premise -- you have not established that evolutionary derived 'morals' are dependent on God creating morality.

For all you know, codified behaviors are part of an evolution of a social species, which would make said "morality" an emergent property of said social specie evolution.

If God can create evolution, and evolution can create morality, it follows that God can create morality. But premise 1 says that is not true.

(3) Therefore if morality were to be real/objective/non-delusion, it would be eternal.

How is "morality" a coherent object that persists? How is it inherited and yet some form of "eternal" state?

There is a mystic explanation to this but briefly we are linked to God.

Also, how does this premise operate while this one cannot:
(3) If morality is a temporary object formed within the mind of an individual, then morality is around as long as that individual is around.

Not if an eternal individual exists that is the source of morality to others.

I'm not gonna even poke this one...

Good that's another discussion...this proof relies on assumption that objective morality is true.

[Anomalocaris]

You are trying too hard.

Come on bro...which premise do you dispute?

(1) If God exists, he cannot create morality when morality didn't exist.

Why not?

(2) If God cannot create morality when morality didn't exist, then neither can evolution.

Why not?

(3) Therefore if morality were to be real/objective/non-delusion, it would be eternal.

No

(4) Objective morality exist.

Based on what?

(5) Therefore Objective morality is eternal.

It does not have to exist, and if existent, it does not have to be eternal.

[Mystic]

@ Chuck

Why not?

Because if God can decide what morality is, then it would be arbitrary as acknowledged by philosophers of both atheists and theists. But I argued it's not arbitrary. Are you aware of the Euthyphro dilemma. It's suppose to be a proof that morality is independent of God but really I'm using to show that it linked to God and God is eternal morality or eternal morality exists in him.


Why not?

If God can create evolution, and evolution can create morality, then it follows God can create morality. Therefore it follows from this premise 1 that evolution cannot create morality. That and whatever structure of the brain that evolution can produce, God can surely create...

Based on what?


This is on intuition/faith/properly basic knowledge, objective morality cannot be proven by rational arguments.

[Reforged]

As far as I know morality doesn't exist in any place other than in the minds of human beings.
You might as well ask if thought was created from nothing which would be pointless because our brains create our thoughts dependent on sustenance and sensory information received.
Why do our brains create thoughts based in morality? The same reason we have thoughts about food, drink, shelter and sex. Survival. Animals that travel in groups are more likely to survive and procreate which means it is beneficial to contribute to the survival of the group as a whole. This would lead to acts of kindness, selflessness and courage. The groups who co-operated the most would be the most likely to pass down their genes thus increasing the probability of "morale" behaviour manifesting itself as an innate attribute of the species as a whole. Combine this with high intellect and adaptability causing this behaviour to take more complex forms to maximize co-operation and by default survival and you end up with the human races modern take on morality.

[twocompulsive]

If God exists and He created morality, then that morality is by definition absolute and objective, since there can be no higher source to define it. The problems start however if God starts being capricious and altering morality for whatever reason. It then cannot be deemed to be eternal and absolute. I know you did not introduce the element of capriciousness into the equation, but it is very important nonetheless. But if we take your premise at face value then yes, morality is absolute and objective.

Or is it? Because then one has another problem and it is this: if God is omnipotent and omniscient, it does not automatically follow that He is also omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence, unlike the other two, is not conditional on God's existence. You cannot be God and not be omnipotent or omniscient for example, as they are two requirements of an absolute and eternal deity. But He does not have to be omnibenevolent however. So his morality, even if not subject to capriciousness, can still be suspect. Now you may get round this by just claiming God is omnibenevolent, but unless you can reference said omnibenevolence as an absolute requirement of His existence like the other two, then your premise that absolute morality can exist as an ethical code of existence that cannot be improved upon, cannot be demonstrated.

[Mystic]

As far as I know morality doesn't exist in any place other than in the minds of human beings.
You might as well ask if thought was created from nothing which would be pointless because our brains create our thoughts dependent on sustenance and sensory information received.
Why do our brains create thoughts based in morality? The same reason we have thoughts about food, drink, shelter and sex. Survival. Animals that travel in groups are more likely to survive and procreate which means it is beneficial to contribute to the survival of the group as a whole. This would lead to acts of kindness, selflessness and courage. The groups who co-operated the most would be the most likely to pass down their genes thus increasing the probability of "morale" behaviour manifesting itself as an innate attribute of the species as a whole. Combine this with high intellect and adaptability causing this behaviour to take more complex forms to maximize co-operation and by default survival and you end up with the human races modern take on morality.

I understand your view point. The argument is based on two premises:

If God exists, then he cannot create morality. ( I argued why in OP).
Objective morality exists.

The conclusion will follow if you assume these two are true.

As for 1, I've seen Atheists argue with Euthyphro dilemma that God cannot decide morals as that would make it arbitrary. In fact, atheist philosophers do it all the time to show we don't need God and morality is independent of God. I think it proves the opposite. That morality is impossible without God.

But both these premises seem widely agreed upon, therefore, if not conclusive, this argument is still very potent.

Saying evolution created morality and it exists only in mind of human beings...this is exactly what the whole argument was aimed at disproving.

It proves morality is eternal (if you agree on the two premises I mentioned). You can even substitute "goodness" with "morality". And you would concluded goodness is eternal.

But both of these need consciousness. Therefore it follows conscious is eternal.

I can further make the argument, that goodness has infinite potential, and all must exist eternally. Thus Ultimate Goodness exists. Therefore God.

You can also substitute the word "greatness"...and the same would be true. Then you reach conclusion of Ultimate Greatness.