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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 3:50 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2012 at 3:52 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If you think Euthyphro shows that morality is impossible without god you're probably doing it wrong.
By the by "ultimate goodness" =/= god in any case, and that's without even bothering to screw with you over every step you went through to reach that particularly transparent conclusion.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 3:51 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2012 at 3:52 pm by Mystic.)
Two compulsive...I think you misunderstood my argument. I'm not trying to prove if God exists, then morality is objective/absolute. I'm rather stating, if morality is objective, then it's eternal. The argument relies on "If God were to exist, he cannot create objective morality" and "Morality is objective" to prove this. The conclusion seems to follow, from these two premises...that morality is eternal.
You can also substitute "goodness" and "greatness" as neither of these two can be arbitrary as well. And if you assume that there is infinite potential to these, and are eternal, you will reach conclusion of God.
This argument is a long proof of the famous premise: "If there is objective morality, then God exists." or "If God doesn't exist, then there is no objective morality".
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 3:53 pm
I think it's likely that you would reach the conclusion of god given any number of disparate and entirely unrelated concepts or terms...personally.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 3:58 pm
(July 12, 2012 at 3:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: @ Chuck
Why not?
Because if God can decide what morality is, then it would be arbitrary as acknowledged by philosophers of both atheists and theists. But I argued it's not arbitrary. Are you aware of the Euthyphro dilemma. It's suppose to be a proof that morality is independent of God but really I'm using to show that it linked to God and God is eternal morality or eternal morality exists in him.
I think you are dancing around in the superstructure without establishing the foundation. The fact that Plato described it doesn't mean it it not airy speculation based on no firm supporting structure.
What is objective morality? An morality that not only is agreed upon, but would be agreed upon (in some way) in any circumstances?
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 4:05 pm
(July 12, 2012 at 2:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Quote:How is "morality" a coherent object that persists? How is it inherited and yet some form of "eternal" state?
There is a mystic explanation to this but briefly we are linked to God.
No. Unacceptable.
In that light of no-proof/no logic, I conjecture that the mystic explanation is bull pocky.
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 4:05 pm
(July 12, 2012 at 3:58 pm)Chuck Wrote: I think you are dancing around in the superstructure without establishing the foundation. The fact that Plato described it doesn't mean it it not airy speculation based on no firm supporting structure.
What is objective morality? An morality that not only is agreed upon, but would be agreed upon (in some way) in any circumstances?
Objective morality existing is an assumption the argument makes. I will make a thread about what I think objective morality is and how we can know objective morals, but as far as this thread goes, I'm not going to get into discussion of objective morality.
Most people cannot explain objective morality, but I believe are justified in believing in it.
That premise can be disputed and if it is, then the argument would not be conclusive.
I've said it before - all arguments towards God make use of properly basic faith/intuitive knowledge.
As far as this argument, yes, you need faith in morality being real and objective and not all subjective or a delusion.
Without that faith the argument fails.
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 4:06 pm
So this argument, far from explaining or elaborating upon an issue, only leads to more difficult and uncertain arguments......and on top of that...requires faith?
I'll pass.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 4:10 pm
I can make stuff up, too... but I don't go around pretending any of it is true.
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 4:15 pm
(July 12, 2012 at 4:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So this argument, far from explaining or elaborating upon an issue, only leads to more difficult and uncertain arguments......and on top of that...requires faith?
I'll pass.
Well believing in free-will requires faith/properly basic intuition, doesn't mean that faith is not well supported and strong.
I have faith in objective morality. I feel it's strong and well supported.
Besides remember the
A-> C = D
D ->A
D is true.
Therefore A is true.
Therefore C is true.
In the other thread. The fact we know morality being objective implies it must be eternal is a strong proof that we have knowledge of objective morality which makes no sense if it were not real.
As far A ->C, I think I've proven we have this knowledge in this thread.
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RE: Can Creator create morality from nothing?
July 12, 2012 at 4:18 pm
(July 12, 2012 at 3:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: twocompulsive...I think you misunderstood my argument. I'm not trying to prove if God exists, then morality is objective/absolute. I'm rather stating, if morality is objective, then it's eternal. The argument relies on "If God were to exist, he cannot create objective morality" and "Morality is objective" to prove this. The conclusion seems to follow, from these two premises...that morality is eternal.
You can also substitute "goodness" and "greatness" as neither of these two can be arbitrary as well. And if you assume that there is infinite potential to these, and are eternal, you will reach conclusion of God.
This argument is a long proof of the famous premise: "If there is objective morality, then God exists." or "If God doesn't exist, then there is no objective morality".
Right, well then in that case I would say no, because I do not believe in objective morality but that has nothing to do with me not believing in God. I do not believe the two are mutually compatible. It is perfectly possible for example to have a debate about one without invoking the other. So I therefore challenge the very assumption you are basing your argument on. Whether you believe in God or not or whether you believe in absolute morality or not, the root of morality per se lies within psychology and not relgion anyway. So I think your entire premise is flawed from the start.
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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