Acting authentically in the face of survival

[frankiej]

If everyone got what they wanted all the time then the world would probably be in an even worse state.

I'm not really sure what you mean. Care to elaborate on how that would be the case?

I'll maybe explain later... I'm watching Seinfeld just now.

Rhythm has scraped the surface of what I meant with his post. I'm sure your imagination can do the rest, Hovik.

[Annik]

I'm not sure. I know a few multi-generational trust fund babies and they do not look so happy or fulfilled to me. One is in the arts and has a position as a curator at a museum but, much as I like her, she does not seem so content. Perhaps if you take away the need to survive but you're unhappy in spite of achieving the objectives you set for yourself .. the only thing left is despondency and therapy?

This is hard for me to say one way or the other, as I don't know the woman, but she could still be acting in bad faith.

[Shell B]

Frankie is touching on, whether on purpose or not, the fact that if everyone got what they wanted, one or more is bound to infringe on what another person wants. It is inevitable in a population this large. You or I would get what we want, but so would murderers and rapists. It is rather obvious when you think about it, no?

[jackman]

orange now? looks like a mixup at headquarters, shell.

[genkaus]

I recently had a conversation that filled my head with fuck.
EDIT: This is an existential topic.

We have to have money to survive in this world. There is no getting around it. We need money for food, housing, clothing, and everything else under the sun. To get that money, we often have to do things we don't want to or wouldn't do otherwise. This holds especially true in the current economy. As an example, let's say you're trying to go through school. It's likely that you'll need to take up a job, maybe even two. Instead of going to college just to focus on your studies as you might want, you have to work to feed yourself. Having a job (and furthermore, not being able to choose a job you really want to work at due to slim pickings or lack of experience) is not exactly authentically you, but is a necessity.

Which brings me to the topic I'd like to discuss. Is it even possible to act in good faith while in such a system? How can one be authentic when we have to worry about survival? Does it really count as being authentic if you're trying to be as true to yourself as possible?

As a side discussion: How could this change? Would something like the Venus Project really work?

I think the term "being authentic" is being used rather loosely here. You say that being authentic means staying true to your motives and desires, but which motives and desires are you referring to here? Am I being authentic if I give in to the momentary desire to watch TV or am I being authentic if I keep in mind my motive of acing the class and devote my time to studies instead? Or am I not being authentic in either case, since I am going against atleast one of my desires. In that case, being authentic would simply be impossible for anyone, irrespective of the question of survival, since we do not live in a fantasy world where all our desires are fulfilled.

My view here is that for someone to have the capacity of being authentic, he must have a well-defined value structure. He must have his priorities - the importance he places on different motives and desires - in order. If he consistently chooses what's more important over the less, then he is being authentic. If he does not have such a structure, there would be no way to determine if he is being authentic or not.

Further on this structure, one can easily determine that survival would be near the top. In which case, you could say that when the question came to survival through a shitty job and starvation through a happy one and he chose survival, then he is acting authentically - but is he really? Acting authentically does not mean doing so only when the stakes are this big - it'd be a full time job. A series of small, but consistent "unauthentic" actions - those of choosing play over work - maybe the ones catching up to him. The reason your authenticity comes at a high price now maybe because of your un-authenticity in the past. So, is being consistently authentic possible - irrespective of whether it is a question of survival or not - yes. But the degree of self-awareness and introspection it'd require would be monumental.

[Shell B]

orange now? looks like a mixup at headquarters, shell.

Haha, no mixup. I'll participate in some threads and whatnot, but I just don't feel up to being on the staff anymore. Maybe I'll feel like I would enjoy it again or have a big project I want to work on and come back, but for now, I'm content to get back to catching up with the cool ones around here. Also, it gives me more time to hang out with Tibs and work on my book. Not by much, as I'm sure we'll still chat about stuff that is going on here, but my browser locks the place out after 30 minutes, so I'll use my time here more wisely and with people I really want to hang out with. Brilliant, if you ask me.

[jackman]

orange now? looks like a mixup at headquarters, shell.

Haha, no mixup. I'll participate in some threads and whatnot, but I just don't feel up to being on the staff anymore. Maybe I'll feel like I would enjoy it again or have a big project I want to work on and come back, but for now, I'm content to get back to catching up with the cool ones around here. Also, it gives me more time to hang out with Tibs and work on my book. Not by much, as I'm sure we'll still chat about stuff that is going on here, but my browser locks the place out after 30 minutes, so I'll use my time here more wisely and with people I really want to hang out with. Brilliant, if you ask me.

understood. well, don't leave us in shell hell (withdrawal) for too long of stretches, if you can help it.

[Shell B]

Aw, thanks, jackman.

[jackman]

---

I recently had a conversation that filled my head with fuck.
EDIT: This is an existential topic.

We have to have money to survive in this world. There is no getting around it. We need money for food, housing, clothing, and everything else under the sun. To get that money, we often have to do things we don't want to or wouldn't do otherwise. This holds especially true in the current economy. As an example, let's say you're trying to go through school. It's likely that you'll need to take up a job, maybe even two. Instead of going to college just to focus on your studies as you might want, you have to work to feed yourself. Having a job (and furthermore, not being able to choose a job you really want to work at due to slim pickings or lack of experience) is not exactly authentically you, but is a necessity.

Which brings me to the topic I'd like to discuss. Is it even possible to act in good faith while in such a system? How can one be authentic when we have to worry about survival? Does it really count as being authentic if you're trying to be as true to yourself as possible?

As a side discussion: How could this change? Would something like the Venus Project really work?


To help understand my gobbly-gook, Hovik further explains the context in which we're viewing the topic:

By authentic, Annik means affecting one's own choices. In a world where one is forced to survive, one is not being true to one's own desires and authentic motives. In every action I make, I am free to choose for myself what I wish to do, and at no point can I say that I have no ability to do so. However, when one is forced to survive, his or her available avenues of choice are limited, and therefore one does not act as though they were completely free.

This is a topic that I think Star Trek: TNG touched on nicely. In their time, money doesn't exist, and people are free to live to their own affected ideal. They needn't worry about survival.

This then gives rise to the question, can a person truly be free if he or she must devote time to surviving?

MOAREDITZ: I just want to tack on that I believe a society torn away from the need to survive would have to have a lot of help from technologies to produce goods and do maintenance. We'd have to go fully automatic on a lot of things. Please reference the Venus Project for more information as to how such a world would be.

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[Annik]

As stated in the OP, this is an existential topic. Here are some links to better explain authenticity in the context of existentialism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticit...tentialism
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/#Aut
http://www.iep.utm.edu/sartre-ex/#H6


There seems to be a lot of confusion as to the terminology used in this conversation. I'd recommend doing a little research on the topic, if you're not familiar with it.

And for kicks, this explains the Venus Project mentioned in my OP:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Venus_Project