Thread on Asatru

[Gaest]

Hey folks,

As some of you might know I am Asatru/Norse heathen.
Over on "thethinkingatheist.com" I have made a thread about my religion and believes.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...k-a-Viking

I thought some of you might find it interesting.

Cheers

[kılıç_mehmet]

I already know about your "religion".
I belive it's a nice thing that these recon movements exist, and they go well hand in hand with nationalistic movements, as these heathen religions are ethnicity specific.
I wish we had a similar recon movement in Turkey, but we would need to bring a few people from the far corners of the Altai to teach us our old faith once more.

[The Grand Nudger]

I already know about your "religion".
I belive it's a nice thing that these recon movements exist, and they go well hand in hand with nationalistic movements, as these heathen religions are ethnicity specific.
I wish we had a similar recon movement in Turkey, but we would need to bring a few people from the far corners of the Altai to teach us our old faith once more.

LOL, no they aren't, especially in the case of Asatru......ffs sake....Is there any place you look and don't see ethnocentric bullshit?

[kılıç_mehmet]

I already know about your "religion".
I belive it's a nice thing that these recon movements exist, and they go well hand in hand with nationalistic movements, as these heathen religions are ethnicity specific.
I wish we had a similar recon movement in Turkey, but we would need to bring a few people from the far corners of the Altai to teach us our old faith once more.

LOL, no they aren't, especially in the case of Asatru......ffs sake....Is there any place you look and don't see ethnocentric bullshit?

Asatru is, as far as I'm concerned, a revival movement for ancient germanic pagan practices. It would not make any sense if a Bantu worshipped Odin/Woden, or prayed to Thor/Donar, yes?
These are all ethnic religions, revived amongst those who are of those ethnicities.

[The Grand Nudger]

As if it "made sense" to worship anything at all. Perhaps you should learn a little bit about how the pantheon of this particular reconstruction formed, the broad and vast contributions made by all the varying cultures (and ethnicities) that led to these gods, these stories. This "germanic pagan" religion wears it's mixed blood on it's fucking sleeve.....

Fucking ridiculous Mehm, before you decide that something is "ethnicity specific" shouldn't you actually..you know..look to see if it is?

(Hey, for extra credit, where do you figure that "germanic pagans" emigrated from?)

[kılıç_mehmet]

Perhaps you should learn a little bit about how the pantheon of this particular reconstruction formed, the broad and vast contributions made by all the varying cultures (and ethnicities) that led to these gods

And I still stand by my original post. I don't think that Asatru is a belief system that is open to anyone else than people with a germanic background(by germanic, I do not just mean Germans, I mean any people who speak Germanic languages as their ancestral tongue).

This "germanic pagan" religion wears it's mixed blood on it's fucking sleeve.....

Oh, please enlighten me then. I believe you're confusing asatru with Wicca, which is actually a religion that fits your description, and it has adherents of all races and ethnicities, but it's not a recon movement, it is a new-age religion that puts focus on magic and witchcraft.

(Hey, for extra credit, where do you figure that "germanic pagans" emigrated from?)

Depends on the timeline.
If you want to go a while back, we can discuss the Urheimat hypotheses for the indo-european peoples.
But currently the majority of scholars believe it was somewhere around the Pontic steppe for the indo-europeans, but Germanic peoples have been in Europe since ancient times.

[The Grand Nudger]

And I still stand by my original post. I don't think that Asatru is a belief system that is open to anyone else than people with a germanic background(by germanic, I do not just mean Germans, I mean any people who speak Germanic languages as their ancestral tongue).

Of course you do, likely because you feel the need to search for validation for your own ethnocentric garbage from what you perceive to be the ethnocentrism of others. It's not important whether or not that ethnocentrism is actually present, only that you can assure yourself that it is.

Oh, please enlighten me then.

Exactly the point, I shouldn't have to.

I believe you're confusing asatru with Wicca, which is actually a religion that fits your description, and it has adherents of all races and ethnicities, but it's not a recon movement, it is a new-age religion that puts focus on magic and witchcraft.

See what believing gets you?

Depends on the timeline.
If you want to go a while back, we can discuss the Urheimat hypotheses for the indo-european peoples.
But currently the majority of scholars believe it was somewhere around the Pontic steppe.

Hey, look at you, I'm wondering how you could be aware of this and yet still maintain that there was some sort of ethnic specificity to the collection of beliefs that ended up being terminated (as they traveled and absorbed other beliefs) in northern Europe with the rise of christianity. Some of their gods/superstitions/cultural quirks/narratives likely originate from as far afield as west fucking Africa Mehm (and if we continue to go further back, you know, depending on the timeline, down into the interior)..... So tell me again why a Bantu can't worship them? This is what happens when cultures collide, they collude.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Of course you do, likely because you feel the need to search for validation for your own ethnocentric garbage from what you perceive to be the ethnocentrism of others. It's not important whether or not that ethnocentrism is actually present, only that you can assure yourself that it is.

Well, to call it "germanic paganism" is to be ethnocentric. It means that it's the ancient religious practices of a specific ethnicity.
It is present, because it has to be. Or it'd just be called "paganism" and would not even use a germanic word which draws it's roots from old norse.
It worships the pantheon of Aesir, which was specific to the Germanic peoples, and to a lesser degree, by some Gaul-Germanic half-breeds.

Exactly the point, I shouldn't have to.

You said, it wears it's "mixed blood on the sleeve"...
What exactly do you mean by this?

I'm wondering how you could be aware of this and yet still maintain that there was some sort of ethnic specificity

Well, if there was no ethnic specificity, it wouldn't be called Asatru. It's based on the germanic ethnic religious practices of old, and I believe you are intelligent enough to understand this.

to the collection of beliefs that ended up being terminated (as they traveled and absorbed other beliefs) in northern Europe with the rise of christianity.

You call it a "collection" of beliefs in a really weird manner. There is no collection of beliefs here. These people are trying to resurrect or at least reconstruct as best as they can, genuine germanic pagan practices, which are specific to the germanic culture of the time, to the point of it's termination.
I don't know how clearer this can get.

Indeed, indo-european beliefs have certain similarities to eachother, but these are very subtle, and have already grown to a point where they were very different from eachother at the point they have reached where tribes like germans, gauls etc. were recognizable.
It's like saying that Iranians can worship Thor and Germans can worship Ahura Mazda while having no ethno-cultural relationship with these cultures, although sharing the same language tree a very long while back.

Some of their gods/superstitions/cultural quirks/narratives likely originate from as far afield as west fucking Africa

I believe you're pulling my leg here.
It's been a long time since humans emigrated from Africa to other parts of the world, the only similarity you might cite is the belief in afterlife.

So tell me again why a Bantu can't worship them?

It's an ethnic specific folk religion. It was developed within that ethnicity, and nomanclecture relating to it is in the speicific Germanic languages that the people who practiced it spoke. It makes little sense to state that a Bantu can worship the Aesir, for Bantus and Germanic peoples are two different peoples of two different cultures.
It makes sense for a Bantu and German to worship Jesus, as it's a non-ethnicity specific religion, anyone can be a part of it.
But Asatru...I sometimes wonder you just write these simply for the sake of opposing me, without real reason or logic behind your words.

---

The real thing is, Asatru is part of the Germanic cultural heritage. Do I have any rights on that heritage to actually state that I can worship Asatru Gods, whereas I'm not even part of the people from those practices originated?

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, to call it "germanic paganism" is to be ethnocentric.

It's a snapshot in time Mehm, that's all.

It means that it's the ancient religious practices of a specific ethnicity.

No, it just means that it's what we can gather of the religious practices in the area when we take the snapshot. Has nothing to do with their ultimate origins.

It is present, because it has to be. Or it'd just be called "paganism" and would not even use a germanic word which draws it's roots from old norse.

LOL, ethnocentrism by use of a word in a specific langauge. Is that like ":not facism: because we use a different word for it"?

It worships the pantheon of Aesir, which was specific to the Germanic peoples, and to a lesser degree, by some Gaul-Germanic half-breeds.

Don't forget their other half [Vanir], those strange fertility gods that don't seem to fit with the warrior Aesir and find analogs in cultures far afield. Don't forget our understood difficulties in determining what is "germanic pagan" and what is later (mostly christian) revision, propaganda, or mistake (specifically with other cultures or just pure fantasy). What we have now, presented to us as the pagan religion of [insert european region here] is a huge mishmash of shit, carelessly hobbled together, mostly by monks (of yet another religion, adding their own shit to the narrative) centuries after the fact, and not in any way indicative of some specific ethnicity, or ethnic bias in origin.

You said, it wears it's "mixed blood on the sleeve"...
What exactly do you mean by this?

See the above.

You call it a "collection" of beliefs in a really weird manner. There is no collection of beliefs here. These people are trying to resurrect or at least reconstruct as best as they can, genuine germanic pagan practices, which are specific to the germanic culture of the time, to the point of it's termination.
I don't know how clearer this can get.

Neither do I, what they are resurrecting is a collection of beliefs, not all of which are of "Germanic" origin, and ultimately...none of which are of "Germanic" origin...as "germanic" peoples didn't spring forth from the ashes and oaks of northern fucking Europe (despite their claims to the contrary).

Indeed, indo-european beliefs have certain similarities to eachother, but these are very subtle, and have already grown to a point where they were very different from eachother at the point they have reached where tribes like germans, gauls etc. were recognizable.
It's like saying that Iranians can worship Thor and Germans can worship Ahura Mazda while having no ethno-cultural relationship with these cultures, although sharing the same language tree a very long while back.

They can. It's no different than worshiping any other deity. I don't see why you think this is so important, or why you think there's a problem......

[kılıç_mehmet]

Has nothing to do with their ultimate origins.

Their ultimate origin only serves academic purposes.

LOL, ethnocentrism by use of a word in a specific langauge. Is that like ":not facism: because we use a different word for it"?

I believe it's enough to denote that it's specific to a certain people.

Don't forget their other half [Vanir], those strange fertility gods that don't seem to fit with the warrior Aesir and find analogs in cultures far afield.

Regardless of whatever analogs they find in whatever cultures, they are known to be a part of a pantheon worshipped by the ancient germans.
As I said, "ultimate origins" serve academic purposes.

Don't forget our understood difficulties in determining what is "germanic pagan" and what is later (mostly christian) revision

Well, if there is the question of genuinity of a certain part of the practices that were described in detail, I'm sure the people who are responsible of the reconstruction movement would have pondered on it.
Well, it's hard to revive a dead religion without bumping into dead ends.

What we have now, presented to us as the pagan religion of [insert european region here] is a huge mishmash of shit, carelessly hobbled together, mostly by monks (of yet another religion, adding their own shit to the narrative) centuries after the fact, and not in any way indicative of some specific ethnicity, or ethnic bias in origin.

It still doesn't matter, friend. It was attributed to a certain people.
That's why recon movements aim to spread it within those people, for it comes from those people.
Who knows, monks may have included celtic practices into germanic ones, or germanic ones into celtic ones, but this still doesn't change that these represented the specific ethno-cultural differences that existed before the rise of christianity.

not all of which are of "Germanic" origin

Well, how far could it ever go? Truth is, they might not all be genuine germanic beliefs, but they ought to have an amount of genuinity in themselves to be called recon movements.

none of which are of "Germanic" origin...as "germanic" peoples didn't spring forth from the ashes and oaks of northern fucking Europe (despite their claims to the contrary).

What?
You really think that this is a geographical thing? Germanic peoples are known to be there before the arrival of the huns. They were there, and they were well documented by the romans, by tribe names, customs and everything there is.
I don't know why you place so much value of geography. The Germanic peoples in parts of Eastern Europe, known as the Goths, who have migrated during the dark ages were known to share very similar customs with those of the Norse and Germanic tribes that wer present in Germania before the arrival of the Huns.
It really doesn't matter whether they were always in northern Europe or not, they still had a specific, genuine germanic culture, associated with the germanic peoples. You can see these from weapons, pottery, cuisine ways of life, dress etc. etc. I'm sure that their religious practices showed differences from the people around them.

They can. It's no different than worshiping any other deity. I don't see why you think this is so important, or why you think there's a problem......

Well,theoretically, they can worship even a cup of water if they want to...But what sense would that make? Even in religion, there is a shred of sense.