Atheism +

[Categories+Sheaves]

I mean, how many people could see them banning someone, just for being a member of the Amazing Atheist's site?

*raises a hand*

Actually, when the folks from TAA's (pretty much dead atm) fan forum started their campaign, one of the guys got banned before he posted anything. iirc, moderator SubMor noted that the glut of people who needed banning had all signed up at around the same time, so he preemptively banned any other accounts that were created around said time.
So that banning was actually rather prudent. But yes, it happened.

[TaraJo]

*raises a hand*

Actually, when the folks from TAA's (pretty much dead atm) fan forum started their campaign, one of the guys got banned before he posted anything. iirc, moderator SubMor noted that the glut of people who needed banning had all signed up at around the same time, so he preemptively banned any other accounts that were created around said time.
So that banning was actually rather prudent. But yes, it happened.

I honestly can't say I'm surprised.

But, whatever. Their site, their movement, their idea of social justice, and it's all crashing and burning. When you have an ideology like this but you don't bother telling people about it, things tend to die out on you. Any ideology wants to spread to prosper. Instead of finding new recruits, they're automatically rejecting anyone who might hurt people's feelings. One of the things I've learned about internet forums is that people come and go. I know there have been a few forums that are still quite active that I've kinda drifted away from. I also know that we've had a lot of people who have been on these forums and been very active members who simply don't post anymore. Their problem will be that when old posters leave, they aren't going to be able to get any new posters until and unless they open up a little. As of right now, opening up is about the last thing they seem to want to do.

[Avicenna]

A slight correction, people assume FTB is some sort of universal group think site but it really is a lot more diverse than you think.

Oh and I was asked to join AFTER I spoke out against Ian Cromwell's stance on race, Taslima's stance on prostitution and against Atheism Plus for being so rigid in it's outlook that it condemned people who were genuinely helping women achieve freedom.

The issue is some of the harassment faced is frankly insane. I have had people straight up tell people not to go to my site because it was on FTB because I was now taking money to write (A dollar! Wooo! The things I could buy! If I had 5 of them I could get myself a Big Mac back home in the UK!)

FTB is not rigid as you think, it's just that anti-FTBers have gotten on various shit lists so it looks like everyone is united against them for different reasons.

[TaraJo]

From what I've seen, FTB has a bit more variety than Atheism+. Not much more, though. Thunderf00t found that out pretty quick when he posted a blog that questioned their talking points. I'll be the first to admit, he probably wouldn't have been booted had he not followed that on disagreement with several other blog posts/youtube videos that were specifically critical of their ideals, though. But the fact that they would react with so much hostility toward someone for simply disagreeing with them makes the title "freethought" kinda laughable.

I see the social justice culture as being on a spectrum. There are reasonable social justice activists on one end and those tend to be the people in Washington getting legislation passed or they're the ones running soup kitchens or domestic violence shelters. On the other end of that spectrum, you get Atheism+: people who are so religiously dogmatic about their ideals that they're unable to view the world from other perspectives. In fact, they've gone a step further and declared that anyone who can see the world from a different perspective is a misogynist. FTB might not be the same place on the spectrum as Atheism+, but the site is still a bit closer than I'd feel comfortable with.

[Cephus]

You have to remember, while FtB is not a complete echo chamber, the most vocal members like PZ and Ophelia Benson are strongly into the movement. The few other blogs there that are not swilling the Koolaid are blogs that just don't rock the boat, they simply opt out of the movement entirely and do their own thing. So long as they don't piss anyone off by, say, disagreeing, they're fine and get to stick around. The second they speak out against the status-quo though, they find themselves as bloggers without a home.

There's nothing freethought about FtB, but you can opt out of the craziness to some degree.

[Lion IRC]

One of the A+ Forum Mods has an interesting blog here;

http://subjunctivemorality.wordpress.com/

[Edwardo Piet]

It's odd how this forum feels so much more inactive to me but there are so much more people than there used to be.

[Tiberius]

A slight correction, people assume FTB is some sort of universal group think site but it really is a lot more diverse than you think.

Tell that to Thunderf00t.

Oh and I was asked to join AFTER I spoke out against Ian Cromwell's stance on race, Taslima's stance on prostitution and against Atheism Plus for being so rigid in it's outlook that it condemned people who were genuinely helping women achieve freedom.

Two words: Damage Control.

The issue is some of the harassment faced is frankly insane. I have had people straight up tell people not to go to my site because it was on FTB because I was now taking money to write (A dollar! Wooo! The things I could buy! If I had 5 of them I could get myself a Big Mac back home in the UK!)

Sorry, but when you choose to associate with people who have lied multiple times and kicked people out of their community for voicing their own opinions, despite being told beforehand that they were quite welcome to do so, you can't really complain when people ask others to avoid the site.

FTB is not rigid as you think, it's just that anti-FTBers have gotten on various shit lists so it looks like everyone is united against them for different reasons.

I haven't gotten onto any shit-lists that I know of, but I look at the kinds of posts they have there, and the kinds of behaviours their writers have, and they seem very rigid to me. Certainly they do not represent anything to do with "freethought".

[Avicenna]

No, it was just the validity of the argument...

Put it this way, the harassment of people like Natalie Reed had boiled down to "Claims He Is A Woman" level of stuff which is pretty hurtful for a trans person (It's like posting a picture of me or Ian Cromwell and going - Thinks they are people). People are honestly sat there claiming that "Acid Throwing" is a joke.

My criticism of A+ was not the same as others. I pointed out technical aspects, the inability to grasp that feminist theory is often inapplicable in practice and that they criticised some things and wanted me to do things in specific ways that would actually HARM women outside their experience. I do not agree with their concept of safe space ONLY, the inability to keep a regular debate is a major problem.

Thunderfoot joined a group of people he hated. Then ranted on about feminism and the whole network he was on and leaked backroom conversations and the email addresses of people who subscribe and read along with IP addresses.

That was ALL he did. Imagine all your posts were just slagging people off and then you basically leaked documents that we try and keep secure for a variety of reasons.

Many of my initial readers were from parts of the Middle East since I was born there. Many can be hit with death penalties. Leaking their like Thunderfoot did would have not been cool at all. A lot of the reasons you post on a website in such a way is due to trust that they won't leak your emails to all and sundry, and Thunderfoot sought to damage that.

Thunderfoot also outed people like Natalie Reed by doing this who was writing under a pseudonym because surprise surprise, she is trans and many people are scared or biased against them. In fact one of my massive concerns was that I write under a pseudonym because I have pissed off Animal Libbers who have tried to harass me before (I actually believe I lost a previous syndication because they harassed someone I was talking to.) I used to get death threats and I live in a place where insulting religion can get you jailed. Getting my actual name put up there is "fucking stupid" because I do not want to deal with the kind of crap Taslima has to (And she deals with a lot of crap. At least once a year someone takes umbrage to something she says and they send the cops after her). Think of it this way? Who the hell names their kid Avicenna?

However, I have also stood against A Voice for Men who are currently running a series of posts of outright lies blaming the rapes in India on women. Quite a few atheists hang out there, quite a few of them hate FTB and anyone by association. The Amazing Atheist even had the founder of that site on his show. Which was what caused the FTB vs Thunderfoot "fight". Reap is a friend of his and FTB quite rightly was critical of Atheists giving voice to professional misogynists. AVfM is not running things to make things better for men, it is throwing bricks at women, often women who really need help.

I don't think Atheism Plus functions properly because it's tried to be separate and it's use of ONLY Safe Spaces means that discourse on any topic is near impossible as is correcting someone. That is it's problem. You can literally hold stupid views and no one can tell you otherwise.

Damage Control? Okay that may be the case but I am a feminist too. I agree that Atheists should take the same steps that geeks have taken to try and stamp out sexism within our communities and activities so that we can progress as a group. It's not someone diametrically opposed to A+, it's someone who has been doing frontline medical care in a developing country recognising flaws in a plan and who cannot point out those flaws.

I was never as popular as Thunderfoot was. I don't have blog posts that have hit a hundreds of thousands of views. In fact I was asked to join because I was writing relatively new stuff outside the western hemisphere and writing about things that atheists across the world are struggling for. If it was damage control there are umpteen bloggers who would fit the bill more perfectly than someone who posted two or three posts about it then stopped because I had said everything that needed to be said and anything else is just a repeat.

Many of the people kicked out basically broke rules of house bloggers. And even A+ers have been kicked... Everyone has a comments policy of their own, if you break it you take it. Same as any forum. There are rules here too, break them and you get banned. People broke explicitly stated rules.

[TaraJo]

I've seen FTB, Atheism+ and feminism in general all take molehills and turn them into giant fucking mountains. They have a reputation now.

Also, Thunderf00t doesn't exactly have a reputation as a hacker. An alternative theory came up in this post and, honestly, it sounds more reasonable than a lot of what has been said.

So, they're claiming that he did all this super hacking and blackmailed people and critical thinking dictates I ask for proof to believe a claim like that. So far, none of them have provided any.

I've had more than a few run ins with 'Natalie Reed' and she's exactly the type of person who is problematic to any ideology. Closed minded to any ideology or world view that differs from her own, hostile in an extreme way to anyone who disagrees with her (even if it is voiced in a passive-aggressive way), zero concern for real people with real pain and more willing to try to re-shape the rest of the world to fit her own world view than to look at her own beliefs with a critical eye. She, and people like her, are to feminism what Westboro Baptist is to Christianity: extremists who make the reasonable ones look worse than they really are.