Atheism +

[TaraJo]

The feminism meme has been getting increasing prominence... readily adopted by the bloggers on FTB.

I'll say! Recently, I was accused of being "a part of the international gynophobic zeitgeist", just because I referred (accurately) to my ex wife as ' crune punt.' Besides, I have always been a gynophile.

I know. Hell, I mean, I literally have one of the bloggers who has done blogs about me over at FTB. The irony of her having a blog over there is that I don't think she has done a single blog on any kind of atheist topic; it's been social activism, every single time. It's really frustrating that even within the atheist community, where we're supposed to be open minded to new ideas and we're supposed to question things, there are still people who are so downright fundamentalist about their ideology that they can't handle with someone expresses an opinion that doesn't fall strictly within that ideologies' framework.

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

I'll say! Recently, I was accused of being "a part of the international gynophobic zeitgeist", just because I referred (accurately) to my ex wife as ' crune punt.' Besides, I have always been a gynophile.

I know. Hell, I mean, I literally have one of the bloggers who has done blogs about me over at FTB. The irony of her having a blog over there is that I don't think she has done a single blog on any kind of atheist topic; it's been social activism, every single time. It's really frustrating that even within the atheist community, where we're supposed to be open minded to new ideas and we're supposed to question things, there are still people who are so downright fundamentalist about their ideology that they can't handle with someone expresses an opinion that doesn't fall strictly within that ideologies' framework.

This I agree with. For what it's worth.

[KichigaiNeko]

Thought this may be useful.... if it has already been posted, my apologies

Friendly Atheist

[TaraJo]

Does anyone else see this turning into South Park?

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-epi...-go-god-go

[LastPoet]

Reality immitated art!

[Puddleglum]

Hi All -my first post here.

I quite agree with their 'are you with us or against us' I am against them all the fucking way.

they are nothing but a bunch of prissy, spolied little middle class girls obsessed with demonizing men's sexuality

They are extremely religious -they are into this faith based women's studies shit that has no evidence but lots of 'testimony'

I looked at their website and they just banned some guy who called them what they are :'New Puritans'

The are the same intolerant smallminded bossy, witchburning, dissident flogging puritan asshole and they are trying to make Colleges into the same joyless hells as Salem massachussets in 1690.

I say bait them mercillesly. Give the puritan names to refer to them. Chastity and Prudence are good tradional ones although celibacy would be more appropriate for most of them,when you get one of the wimpy make ones then call the sorry assed fucker Jehosephat, ebenezer or Obadiah. Use Goodwoman or Goodman instead of mr or Mrs.

[TaraJo]

Thought I might update this a little.

The whole marriage of social justice/feminism seemed to start with Rebecca Watson and the elevator incident. I can see how that would be a little intimidating to be propositioned by a guy who is probably taller, heavier and more muscular than her, especially in an enclosed space. However, I don't think he was a misogynist as much as he was a little too forward in an enclosed space and, possibly, a bad judge of her reactions.

Well, one of my main criticisms has been that I haven't seen the 'widespread sexism and misogyny within the atheist community.' She finally posted a blog where she included screen caps of messages and emails she's gotten, to provide her examples. As much as I think some of those may be rude, they seem to fall under one of two categories:

1) Internet trolls that are just trying to say whatever will get a reaction from her.

2) Normal stuff that anyone should expect if they're going to be involved in internet conflicts.

Notice how I didn't include the term 'misogyny' or 'sexism' under either of those descriptions? Because I simply don't see it. Misogyny, by definition, is thinking women are weaker or inferior or somehow lesser. I don't see that anywhere. Sexism is treating someone differently because of their sex/gender and, again, I don't see that. In fact, it would be sexist if people treated women nicer than they do men online, not to mention a bit misogynistic if they do it because they don't think women are tough enough to handle the same treatment they give everyone else.

Can anyone else explain where the misogyny or sexism is in here?

http://skepchick.org/2012/09/misandry-a-how-to/

[thesummerqueen]

According to a guy I was seeing recently, in his work online in various forums and on wikipedia as a volunteer, people with feminine sounding nicks or women whose nicks id'd them as women were three times as likely to get harassed, bullied or insulted. I was accused of a lack of empathy, as at the time he and I were having a conversation I didn't express myself as well as I would have liked to in regards to the whole thing.

Believe me, this problem stems from way further back than just Elevatorgate. I have some friends in the skeptic movement who have dealt with her histrionics, and the bullying of the skepchicks, for some time - men AND women who became disillusioned.

Do I think sexism and misogyny are a problem? Absolutely: but I think they're a HUMAN problem. No one ever promised that atheists were going to be rational people - we've had several members fly through here who embodied the essence of irrationality and were stout atheists. I've heard that sexism and misogyny are a bigger problem in the skepticism movement because it's mostly made up of geeks who have no social skills. Unfortunately, I've not heard of any complaints from people outside of reports from the skepchicks. On the other hand, I don't spend my day looking this shit up either. I'd love to see one blog post from outside the skepchick realm surface describing how these conferences aren't safe, that women suffer horrible things there - all the things the skepchicks claim to happen. I even emailed assault and harrasment victim counselors to ask if they could forward a list of things we could do to ensure that at least the gatherings were safe.

The problem, when I boil it down - and I'm open to rebuttals - is that 1) these women have no sense of humor, 2) they act as if everything that comes out of a man's mouth is expected to be accepted and done, and 3) they allow themselves to get worked up into a lather and lose sight of the original argument and goal. Oh, and 4) they seem to think no one should suffer the slightest discomfort - or at least, women never should. I got news for you, cupcake.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Yeah, "a schism against what exactly?"

I have been in a schism since I was 5; people like me and arseholes.

All the world is crazy, except for me and thee,and lately, I've been having doubts about thee" (anon)

[TaraJo]

Interesting. I like it when someone disagrees with me but when they have an open mind about it or are willing to explain things. Thank you.

Let's see what I can get from this, shall we?

According to a guy I was seeing recently, in his work online in various forums and on wikipedia as a volunteer, people with feminine sounding nicks or women whose nicks id'd them as women were three times as likely to get harassed, bullied or insulted. I was accused of a lack of empathy, as at the time he and I were having a conversation I didn't express myself as well as I would have liked to in regards to the whole thing.

Yeah, I can see that happening. There are several other factors in play there, though. For example, men are encouraged to just take it and 'be a man' and not complain when they get harassed or bullied, which, in turn, throws an extra variable into the theory. It would be a very interesting sociological study to do, but it might be difficult to take all the variables out.

Believe me, this problem stems from way further back than just Elevatorgate. I have some friends in the skeptic movement who have dealt with her histrionics, and the bullying of the skepchicks, for some time - men AND women who became disillusioned.

Watson's histronics? Do tell. I mean, I've been an atheist for years but I've only recently been interested in getting involved in an atheist community.

Do I think sexism and misogyny are a problem? Absolutely: but I think they're a HUMAN problem. No one ever promised that atheists were going to be rational people - we've had several members fly through here who embodied the essence of irrationality and were stout atheists.

I suppose that's somewhat true, but I do still question that. I've seen some of the extreme misogyny within religious groups (especially fundamentalist religious groups). I'm talking, these are people who believe vaginas are inherently dirty, women are only good for taking care of the home and raising kids and should be under the authority of a man at pretty much all times. At very least, I'm going to guess that skeptics and atheists will think that's bullshit.

I've heard that sexism and misogyny are a bigger problem in the skepticism movement because it's mostly made up of geeks who have no social skills.

Without a question, I can also see that. However, I do wonder, is it really misogyny if they're socially awkward dorks towards both men and women? At very least, this is misogyny out of ignorance, not malice; it's an important distinction because you can cure ignorance with a good dose of education. Malice isn't so easy to fix.

Unfortunately, I've not heard of any complaints from people outside of reports from the skepchicks. On the other hand, I don't spend my day looking this shit up either. I'd love to see one blog post from outside the skepchick realm surface describing how these conferences aren't safe, that women suffer horrible things there - all the things the skepchicks claim to happen. I even emailed assault and harrasment victim counselors to ask if they could forward a list of things we could do to ensure that at least the gatherings were safe.

That's true, too. From what I can see, we've got a handful of women who are making a mountain out of molehills while a small army of them are simply afraid to question those mountains.

The problem, when I boil it down - and I'm open to rebuttals

The fact that you're open to rebuttals is what I love most about this post. It seems to be a huge difference between you and them.

1) these women have no sense of humor,

I can see that. I've been around a group of them and it's really hard to have fun or make jokes when you're constantly walking on eggshells to try to prevent offending someone..... and then people get offended, constantly, anyway.

2) they act as if everything that comes out of a man's mouth is expected to be accepted and done,

I've seen this, too. It's really frustrating; they see men and masculinity as exclusively oppressive and as a result, anything bad about them that's said is well deserved. When I watch my boyfriend, who was raised in an extremely misogynistic environment and has rejected that environment, when I watch him go out and find places that will validate his thinking that misogyny is wrong but he's constantly bombarded by misandrists who tell him how evil he is for being male and when I see how much it hurts and upsets him...... that's when it gets personal. Heck, until I started seeing how much that mindset hurt him, I don't think I really started questioning feminism in general.

3) they allow themselves to get worked up into a lather and lose sight of the original argument and goal.

They seem to be in a constant state of lather.

4) they seem to think no one should suffer the slightest discomfort - or at least, women never should. I got news for you, cupcake.

Actually, they seem to encourage certain people to be talked about really bad. Just not people within their specific 'in' group. I see feminists who openly tell all men to just die, I see them attacking feminists who are the wrong type of feminist, I see people being under attack for being Christian, for being transgender, for whatever. Me, I've never been a fan of social movements that divide so many people, even among themselves.

Or I dunno. Feminism has done more good than harm, but any ideology can be taken to a dangerous extreme and I think I've seen a few too many feminists who are doing just that.