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Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Do we have free will?
See, I went back over my "Animals and Humans" thread, and I want to bring up something that I failed to mention before.
Animals function on base instincts, yes? Humans do, too--but in a more complex way. For instance, we have a sex drive--like every other sexually reproductive animal on this planet--and we also have this feeling called "love" that goes with it(but not always ;] ). We have the need, as well as the desire along with it, to eat food--we eat and ENJOY our food, not just get nourishment for our bodies. (Which is why there are so many fatties xD)
Now, our choices are dictated by our brain--our thoughts, feelings, and memories--so that we can make a "choice". For instance, you can "choose" to take up smoking, but depending on what others around you say and do regarding smoking (i.e., whether you were in a silly D.A.R.E. class, or if your parents' smoke and could hardly give a rat's ass,), you will or will not smoke cigarettes. (Same with drugs, alcohol, etc...)
Discuss!
Do we have free will, or no?
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RE: Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I myself know of... zero evidence for free will either way, whether the universe is determined or not.
I know of the notion that Quantum Mechanics supports indeterminacy, but indetermined doesn't=free choice. Maybe more free as in, not fixed but choosing which way this indeterminacy goes, I know of no evidence for that. So I don't believe in free will either way.
So as far as I'm concerned we're just highly complex biological robots  , that are moved along by the mechanics of the universe - and we're also part of the universe of course - whether it's determined or not.
P.S: One of my favorite topics 
EvF
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RE: Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Interesting question. I have pondered it myself and have come up with yes and no answers. Let's say there are a million factors that go into making a decision. So many factors, in fact, the decision appears to random, hence we have free will. However, is this just an appearance? If we re-create all those factors in an identical fashion, would we make the same decision twice? I would say yes. If we have 100% accurate predictability of a person's action, then we don't have free will.
"On Earth as it is in Heaven, the Cosmic Roots of the Bible" available on the Amazon.
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RE: Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 6:42 pm
If it's not determinism and the universe is indeterministic, I don't see how that remotely gives us 'free will' in the sense of our ability to freely choose how this indeterminacy goes.
I don't see how more random=free choice!
EvF
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RE: Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 6:55 pm
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2009 at 6:56 pm by fr0d0.)
(July 21, 2009 at 6:30 pm)Tabby Wrote: we eat and ENJOY our food, not just get nourishment for our bodies. (Which is why there are so many fatties xD) No. We naturally crave sugar and fat as an instinct. We have access to too much and are unable without effort to curb our natural instinct.
1. We have free will as we are free to choose.
2. Our choices are entirely mechanical and are not really choices.
Evie and I were discussing this the other night, and the importance of outside influence occurred to me. Like with our peer group any outside influence can put us onto a path of choice. Sowing a seed as LEDO (I think) just said on another thread. So this got me thinking on my abstinence stance on proselytization. Only when presented can reasoned ideas become part of the process of understanding any particular idea.
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RE: Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 7:26 pm
@ fr0d0's 2 points above.
1. If our choices are really mechanical and not really choices then in what sense are we free to choose? In other words, how are you defining that?
To elaborate some here: It's important to note that the above question of mine isn't rhetorical. I believe we are free in the sense we have freedom, avoidability, capability, etc (which would also be true in a deterministic universe). Some of us are more free than others, slaves are less free that those who aren't slaves, obviously (for example). But I believe all our choices and decisions are entirely mechanized - because there is evidence for the mechanics of things and what evidence is there for more than this?
Now, I haven't really looked into either determinism or indeterminism much. As far as I know indeterminism is supported by Quantum Mechanics, so if I believe either I guess I'd have to say I'm an indeterminist if pushed.
But determinism is helpful to me to be used as an example, to help me to be clear that....any definition of free will that I would accept is also compatible with determinism. For I don't believe in any definition of 'free will' that can in anyway override the automated mechanics of the known universe. And any definition that I would accept, I wouldn't call 'free will'.
Why wouldn't I? Well because:
2. If our choices are all mechanical, how do we have specifically free will? Because we have a 'will' obviously in the sense we have intentions we have drive, preferences, likes, dislikes, ambition, etc...but how is this 'will', free exactly?
How is mechanized will, free will? Isn't mechanized will the opposite to free will? As I said: I know of no evidence that our choices are an exception to the mechanical. So in that sense, I don't see how they're free.
EvF
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RE: Determinism
July 21, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Well you said you both agreed and disagreed in your first post so I guess you get the apparent contradiction.
Theologically free will is in the opposite of forced action taking away choice. Denying us the ability to choose as our mechanical processes would make us. The ability to act out our pre programming is therefore, in this sense, free will.
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 12:17 am
As I have argued in similar debates previously, "Properly speaking, freedom ought to be predicated of persons, not faculties. In other words, the agent is free, not his will."
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 4:45 am
Like Ev, I have no idea if we have free will all I know is that any claim that we do have it needs to be justified by validatable evidence (and not just by the usual BS/Wishful Thinking style arguments). My best guess is that we are as much driven as drivers.
Kyu
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 8:58 am
I've changed my view somewhat on this recently. I read a scientific study the other day (forget where, probably Slashdot) that gave some pretty good evidence that the subconscious mind makes decisions before the conscious mind.
Of course, now I've gone and lost the link. I'll have to scour the internets to find it again. Grrr.
So yeah, free will probably doesn't exist. Whether we have some kind of limited will is another thing.
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