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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 9:24 am
(This post was last modified: July 22, 2009 at 9:24 am by LukeMC.)
I have a genuine question for you guys on this topic. If we live in a truly deterministic universe and everything we do is pre-determined (duh), what is the evolutionary advantage of being aware of these undecided actions? I'm just relaying an argument from a youtube philospher jericomovie. He states the question as an argument in its own right, but I feel it shouldn't be rhetorical and probably has an answer. If we cannt choose for ourselves what we do, what is the evolutionary purpose of awareness? If we don't have a choice, what advantage is the illusion of such? How does it help up survive when it has no bearing on the things we do?
(Slap me if the answer is obvious).
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 12:02 pm
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 12:38 pm
All I was saying fr0d0 that I at least wouldn't call a fully mechanized will, 'free will'.
We have freedom (e.g, someone in a prison is less 'free' than someone who isn't, someone who isn't in prison in that sense is more 'free'), and we have a mechanized will. But if our will is entirely mechanized and automated I don't see how it is 'free'. If you want to call that 'free will' then that's your privilege fr0d0.
EvF
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 1:01 pm
(This post was last modified: July 22, 2009 at 1:01 pm by fr0d0.)
You don't believe in it either way Evie (you said above). I wouldn't say I 'believe' in it. I simply accept/ understand the common but somewhat limited usage. I also understand the mechanical nature of choices that would equate to lack of free will. Belief is unnecessary.
From the perspective of the 3rd person it isn't possible to predict a decision so there's fully a choice (from that perspective).
What about voting? The choice isn't a choice really. What government came into power was mechanically chosen and couldn't have been any other.
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RE: Determinism
July 22, 2009 at 6:09 pm
(July 21, 2009 at 6:42 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: If it's not determinism and the universe is indeterministic, I don't see how that remotely gives us 'free will' in the sense of our ability to freely choose how this indeterminacy goes.
I don't see how more random=free choice!
EvF
If there is not randomness, then "choice" would be a matter of set rules and patterns. If choice is set by rules or patterns then it is not "free" choice, but based upon conditions. Randomness allows for free choice by breaking with patterns, rules, and logic. Am I the only one who picked this up from watching "The Black Knight?"
"On Earth as it is in Heaven, the Cosmic Roots of the Bible" available on the Amazon.
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RE: Determinism
July 25, 2009 at 8:28 am
(July 22, 2009 at 6:09 pm)LEDO Wrote: (July 21, 2009 at 6:42 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: If it's not determinism and the universe is indeterministic, I don't see how that remotely gives us 'free will' in the sense of our ability to freely choose how this indeterminacy goes.
I don't see how more random=free choice!
EvF
If there is not randomness, then "choice" would be a matter of set rules and patterns. If choice is set by rules or patterns then it is not "free" choice, but based upon conditions. Randomness allows for free choice by breaking with patterns, rules, and logic. Am I the only one who picked this up from watching "The Black Knight?" What is "The Black Knight", some video on advanced theology? Yeah, I've missed that one!
If there is randomness then there is no choice. It does not allow for free choice just for random overriding of set rules and patterns.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: Determinism
July 25, 2009 at 3:23 pm
I agree PR. I don't see how a roulette wheel is any more 'free' than rigged dice are for instance.
EvF
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RE: Determinism
August 9, 2009 at 10:08 pm
I've never found a satisfactory definition of what Free Will actually is. Free from what? To me it seems that Free Will as a commonly understood concept is only sustainable if you assume that there is a non-physical element to the human mind - a soul or spirit - that can over-ride the physical limitations of your mind resulting from its link to the human brain. Free Will is a spiritual concept as it is that which allows our spiritual sides over-ride our physical sides.
If you reject the possibility of mind-body dualism (and as there is no evidence for dualism, there's no reason not to reject it) then human decision making in all its aspects must arise from the physical behaviour of the brain. Thus, true Free Will is impossible. We all do what we do because of the way our brains function. A secular, scientific society like ours should question Free Will openly in teh same way we question theism.
So why is it so readily accepted as existing? Free Will is such a big deal in the West because it has been used as a central plank of Christianity for centuries. God gave us Free Will (or we took it ourselves by eating that apple) and it's this Free Will that allows us to choose to worship him and to have faith in him (ironically). Without it, getting into Heaven would effectively be down to cuircumstances of birth, which kinda goes against the idea of Jesus sacrificing himself so that any one of us can be Saved.
This has carried forward into secular society and a belief in Free Will has justified not only liberalism and consumerism, but also allows advertising and political news management. Without Free Will, the establishment would have to question whether or not we actually can freely choose who we vote for or whether or not we get drunk every Friday. It would also change the way our politics work - a deterministic mind is easy pickings for political spin and news management, and without the defence of "anyone can freely choose to ignore what we say, and freely choose to vote against us" this behaviour would be seen as highly undemocratic.
I would suggest that it is this faith in the idea of Free Will that is the most harmful aspect of Christianity.
The more interesting question is to what degree is our human sense of conciousness is in control of how our minds function. Is conciousness just along for the ride, or is our sense of self the major governing factor in how we make the choices we do? And if it is a mixture, what can we do to change the balance... and what can we do to mitigate the control others have over us through exploiting our subconcious decision making processes?
For all that the brain is deterministic, it's also capable of learning and altering its behaviour. There is a freedom of sorts that we can aim for; the freedom of our concious minds to over-ride those subconcious and near-automated decision making processes that influence the choices we make.
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RE: Determinism
August 10, 2009 at 1:57 am
(August 9, 2009 at 10:08 pm)Watashi Wrote: I've never found a satisfactory definition of what Free Will actually is. ...
Outside of the idea that religion/Christianity promoted the idea of free will (not claiming I know much about it but I would have thought the Greeks would have had the idea before Christians and consider it more of a "philosophic" idea) nice post 
Welcome to the forums ... why not introduce yourself?
Kyu
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