Giraffe evolution

[Kayenneh]

I get the feeling that creationists will either try to claim that it must evolve fully in one step, or, when proven wrong, will deny the usefullness of a not fully evolved part.

I don't think you're wrong about that (unfortunately..)

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This might be bollocks, but it is (largely) courtesy of BBC's QI.

I trust QI (I mean, who in their right mind wouldn't trust Stephen Fry?! ), and in that case, I stand corrected. But my initial argument still stands. The long neck was beneficial in some way and made the species more successful, otherwise giraffes wouldn't look like that today.

[IATIA]

The idea that a giraffe's neck is long in order to reach the top of trees has been debunked. They reach down to eat the leaves that are fresher at the bottom of the trees.

The fresher leaves are at the end of the branches and the tops of the trees. However, we do not know where the leaves were several million years ago in relation to the giraffes at the time. it may also be a combination of the ability to reach out of reach leaves and view predators.

Albeit I am fully confident with evolution as a process, our knowledge is based on extrapolation of fossils and the observations of today's animals and they may differ significantly. It was only recently that we determined that birds had descended from dinosaurs and that probably a large number of dinosaurs were feathered, including T-Rex.

[Minimalist]

My Dad is a creationist

You have my sympathy.

[Whateverist]

Oh I well remember giraffes before they evolved to be so tall. Used to ride them around, we did. I'm keeping an eye on my nephew. Got a feeling that one might regress back to a monkey.

[Zen Badger]

It's funny you should use the giraffe as an example because its laryngeal nerve is one of the best arguments against creationism.

Oh well.

[Kayenneh]

A picture related to this topic:

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[The Grand Nudger]

I get that bit, but how did the specialised and complex blood pumping system come about? He thinks that bit is irreducibly complex.

Best guess...millimeter by millimeter. It would be a miracle indeed if the giraffe's neck( and related plumbing) came about in a single generation. Unfortunately soft tissue doesn't fossilize well (and nothing fossilizes often). The plumbing itself would have had to come before the elongation of the neck. Genetics might help to figure this one out some day, but it may not. What's irreducibly complex about it, specifically (if you don't mind asking him)? Genetics might offer some insight as to how this -might- or -could- have happened, what does magic bring to the table?

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The fresher leaves are at the end of the branches and the tops of the trees. However, we do not know where the leaves were several million years ago in relation to the giraffes at the time. it may also be a combination of the ability to reach out of reach leaves and view predators.

Or...and I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe giraffes knew that someday cretinists would attempt to use them as a "argument for cretinism" and they bred longer and longer necks to get above the stench of holy bullshit. I feel as confident in this magical explanation as any other, it also has more explanatory power, and references 3x as many things which can be demonstrably shown to exist as the god guess.

[zebo-the-fat]

They evolved long necks because their feet smell... they want to keep their nose as far away as possible