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RE: Beginnings
October 17, 2012 at 5:43 pm
(This post was last modified: October 17, 2012 at 5:45 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(October 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: ...
I'm saying, if God doesn't exist (so he certainly had no part in the beginning of the universe) what do you personally believe regarding the beginning of the universe?
I wouldn't know where to begin. I'm not an astrophysicist. But the supposed lack of naturalistic explanation does not entail that God did it and that therefore he exists. That would be the fallacy of affirming a disjunct.
I don't see any plagiarizing going on.
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Beginnings
October 17, 2012 at 5:48 pm
(October 17, 2012 at 5:43 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Jeff: http://atheistforums.org/rules.php
Quote:Forum Guidelines
5. Do Not Plagiarize.
When quoting from a source other than yourself give credit where credit is due. Use citations, links, names, etc. when possible. Academic integrity is important to many of the members here and it's only fair to give credit where it is due. It is also the legal thing to do, in most cases. Adding your opinion alongside cited text will not only improve the quality of your post but is encouraged.
While the guidelines are not as strictly enforced as the rules, passing off the words of another as your own is inherently dishonest and far from reasonable. You are correct Stimbo. I apologize.
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RE: Beginnings
October 17, 2012 at 6:18 pm
(October 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: (October 17, 2012 at 5:32 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: The universe may have had a beginning. So what?
I'm glad you asked! The last 3 pages of posts have been just people disliking how I phrased my question.
I'm saying, if God doesn't exist (so he certainly had no part in the beginning of the universe) what do you personally believe regarding the beginning of the universe?
Is that relevant to whether goddidit?
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RE: Beginnings
October 17, 2012 at 6:41 pm
(October 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: I'm saying, if God doesn't exist (so he certainly had no part in the beginning of the universe) what do you personally believe regarding the beginning of the universe? Short answer: I don't know!
Long answer: I know do not believe that god did it.
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RE: Beginnings
October 17, 2012 at 6:49 pm
(This post was last modified: October 17, 2012 at 6:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I don't believe anything about any beginnings (or even that there was a beginning) of any universe. The answer to both questions (more specifically the answer to both questions if they were reworded so that a reasonable person felt compelled to give them thought) is "We don't know", the answer will remain "we don't know" until such time as we do. There is no "if there were no god" in the same way that there is no "beginning". I do, however, admire your ability to sandwich a mostly idle question between two instances of bare assertion. Bravo.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Beginnings
October 18, 2012 at 5:04 am
(October 17, 2012 at 5:30 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: It seems to me that the Borde, Guth, Vilenkin theorm does imply an absolute beginning of the universe. Mister Agenda covered this one off nicely; their theory only covers the 'expansion' period of what we understand to be the current state of the universe. It can make no definitive statements about how the expansion started or what might have existed before the expansion as there is limited data. I'm simply pointing out why WLC's extrapolation from the theory is unfounded oversimplification.
Teaearlgreyhot also made the follow-on point: there's no factual connection between the statement 'the universe had a beginning' and '...therefore the Christian God'.
Sum ergo sum
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RE: Beginnings
October 18, 2012 at 9:48 am
You guys what to know what it says about this on my "BigReligionChart" about Atheism (which I am aware is not really a religion)? "Beliefs about the universe usually based on latest scientific findings". That about sums me up.
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RE: Beginnings
October 18, 2012 at 10:05 am
I only got to the second page and the thread made me LOL at work.
Maybe I'm channeling Eld here, but I have to ask...who gives a fuck?
It seems to me whenever a Christian asks this questions, it's generally because they want to hear "well, we don't really know...(without waiting to hear "but this is our best theory")"
Quote:Well, ok. But some of you really need to learn more about epistemology.
LORGLE (that's laughing so hard I'm drooling)
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RE: Beginnings
October 18, 2012 at 10:12 am
Now, I'm no cosmologist or physicist so I could have this all wrong, but I thought one of the ideas that seems to be popular is that time as we know it and as it functions for us, did not exist prior to the Big Bang.
So there basically is no such thing as "before", before the Big Bang.
And what always seems to come up on forums where there are creationists involved, is the whole.... well it happened because the universe was an effect, so if effect then cause, if cause then "before", if "before" then god,
But apply that to their god and, well, he's exempt from it.
Try and exempt our universe from it and, nooooo, everything has to follow that pattern.
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RE: Beginnings
October 18, 2012 at 10:26 am
I hate the talk of time and space beginning with the big bang as if we could possibly attain a perspective broad enough to know this. But I agree with the absurdity of arguing for the necessity of a cause, but then introducing God defined as a causeless cause. So long as there are causeless causes, who needs God as a middle man? We just choose an uncaused universe and start from there.
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