Important questions...

[Craveman]

Hello! I'm new to this site and have a few nagging questions. I used to be a christian and still believe in some Christian values but after starting to ask some questions and been well read things just don't add up anymore and I'm now more veering towards being an atheist.

I once read an article that really changed things for me and in short it was something like: we evolved from apes (we have proof of this and therefore Christianity don't make sense). Man use to walk around eating fruit, nuts, etc and being mostly nomadic at this stage. Then man started eating meat (which is rich in nutrients) and therefore didn't have to travel after food all the time. Man then started dwelling in caves and found fire. Language was form sitting around a campfire. Man started growing crops and more people use to settle together and so civilisation was formed. Politics also formed and as more and more people got together they had to find something to control the crowds and so religeon was formed...

So the questions I have is thus:

1: If God doesn't exist why was Christianity formed? (Is the article I read correct and it was formed to control large crowds?)
2: If I'm going to veer towards the atheist side I need some ammo for discussions
3: Where does the Bible come from? I know it was written by man (who is by nature corrupt so why base a whole religion upon someone elses opinion?)
4: What is xmas, easter and the other bank holidays really? Wasn't xmas a pagan celebration for a Persian god and "cleverly used" by the Christian faith to convert it to Christ's birtday?

Thanks you very much for reading my post and I hope some of you share some of my views and can help me with some of my questions

[dagda]

Although I am not an atheist, I think I can answer some of your questions.

1: the article you read seems a little simplistic. Before the sacking of the Temple in 70AD Christianity was really just a sect of Judaism. However after this date the Christianity we all know and love started to form. There were two main reasons for this; the first was that the original Christians in Jerusalem were mostly dead. This left the Greek Christians with no connection to the Judaic roots of their new religion (none of them really understood the symbolism etc) and so they attached their own Greek imagery to their religion. This made it more accessible to them. Secondly, after 70AD, anti-semitic feeling was running high. This forced the Greek Christians to further disguise its Hebrew origins by attaching yet more Pagan imagery. And so Christianity developed into a separate religion from Judaism.
Added to this Christianity became steadily more political until a stage when it did become an effective 'crowd control' organisation. This further developed Christianity into a religion by attaching certain rules and traditions which made life easier for the ruling elite.
In conclusion, Christianity was formed from centuries of persecution, bloodshed and decite. Hundreds of different factors played their part in creating the largest religion in the world.

3: The bible game from no single source and was slowly compiled over a period of millennium. I think there are over 40 writers in the Protestant bible.

Hope this quickly compiled history helps

[Dotard]

2: If I'm going to veer towards the atheist side I need some ammo for discussions

The Bible is an ammo storehouse. Looky here --->


(click the smiley)

[Rhizomorph13]

Craveman,

As to your first question, it is my opinion that religion was first formed to explain the world around us. I've read that sun cults were some of the first religions. They tied religious significance to the sun for the obvious reasons that life on the planet requires the sun. As people got more complicated so did religions which brought new forms of ideas which lead to advances in theology.

There were also political forces growing and maturing in the world along with theology and where a people could not be conquered by military force, propoganda could be used through religion which could also be used to control the minds and actions of men.

I think science is just a better model for approaching the world we live in because it works to change its own symbols as new data are available whereas religions are more tradition based and therefore try to mold what they see into what they already know.

Rhizo

[Overmars]

4: What is xmas, easter and the other bank holidays really? Wasn't xmas a pagan celebration for a Persian god and "cleverly used" by the Christian faith to convert it to Christ's birtday?

To make Christianity more popular among the heathen people some elements of pagan cults(symbols, holidays) were adapted to Christianity. The church thought that this way they could get more believers. For example the eggs that symbolize Easter were seen by Persians as a symbol of fertility. Some say that Christmas was set on 25th December so it would correspond with a Roman holiday or with the winter festivals from pagan Scandinavia. Some the most known Christmas symbols have pagan roots: the Christmas tree and Santa Claus have some Scandinavian pagan origins. This new elements brought a lot of people to the Christian church because, making a new religion more popular for the common people.

[Anto Kennedy]

They tied religious significance to the sun for the obvious reasons that life on the planet requires the sun.

Not really.

They used the sun's annual, and daily, cycle of day/night, summer/winter, to show how life goes through periods of growth, life and joy, and periods of stagnation, inertia, decay and death. But everyday as the sun rises, life returns. Every year, on the winter solstice, in springtime, on Easter, the sun is revived, life begins anew.

As a newborn infant grows into adulthood, then inertia kicks in, and the individual begins the slow process of decay and eventual death. Perhaps too, the sun will rise up again for the individual.

The moon's monthly cycle is also used in this manner, going through periods of waxing and waning and waxing again. The symbol of the new moon, exactly like that of the rising sun, is employed to symbolize the victory of life over death. This symbol is the crescent moon, the Muslims symbol of choice.

The moon, also being tied to the female menstrual cycle, also carries extra symbolic meaning, as the blossoming of life in spring adds extra power to the symbolic sun.

In Egypt, where the summer is a scorching, dry, barren period, and the winter is the lush period of growth (due to the flooding of the Nile at this point), they used the daily solar cycle almost exclusively. In Northern European cultures such as Ireland and Scandinavia, where, let me tell you, the difference in heat and cold between night and day is not so marked, they used the annual solar cycle.

In the cosmopolitan Islamic cities, where the people do not rely as much on the sun for their livleihoods as agriculturalists would, and are sheltered somewhat by the weather, they used the lunar cycle. Mesopotamia also shared similar conditions to the Egyptians with regards to the sun, in that the flooding of the two rivers occuring in the Autumn/Winter period rendered the use of the annual solar cycle as a metaphor somewhat useless.

Of course, this why Jesus rose from the grave, at Sunrise, on a Sunday, in Spring. For those who have ears to hear, the message which is being made as obvious as possible here is, Life overcomes Death.
The use of parable to convey spiritual truths has a very long history, and to understand Jesus, and his use of parables, and even his becoming a parable himself, one must understand the contextual framework with which his, and many, many others', teaching is delivered.

Using what we know (the Sun) to communicate what we don't know (Resurrection).

[Rhizomorph13]

Anto,

What you wrote about the sun:

They tied religious significance to the sun for the obvious reasons that life on the planet requires the sun.

Not really.

They used the sun's annual, and daily, cycle of day/night, summer/winter, to show how life goes through periods of growth, life and joy, and periods of stagnation, inertia, decay and death. But everyday as the sun rises, life returns. Every year, on the winter solstice, in springtime, on Easter, the sun is revived, life begins anew.

Using what we know (the Sun) to communicate what we don't know (Resurrection).

My distillation:

They tied religious significance to the sun for the obvious reasons that life on the planet requires the sun.

This bit refers to sun cults only. Yes there were moon cults too, but that doesn't refute sun cults. Your bit just adds texture to what I said about people evolving and therefore religion became more complex. At no point did I say there were ONLY sun cults. Did I mention that you are wicked smaht?

We can work together on this one. Not everything has to be an argument.

Rhizo

[maldives]

It's so exciting to meet a budding atheist!!! I same to the same conclusions as the original poster of this thread while taking an anthropology class in college. It was as if all the doubts and squeamish feelings I'd had for religion had finally found a home. Evolution of man, and discovering that man created religion in order to fill emotional, and social needs explained why every culture has developed this tendency, each in a similar manner. Keep reading, take courses, and keep asking questions. It's really a freeing, enlightening time. Although, I did go through a loss, or down period right after deciding I was an athiest... have you experienced any of that?

[Rhizomorph13]

Maldives,

It seems there is always something eating at me. When I was a theist it was the feeling that I was chasing fairys, now that I am an atheist it is the idea that I am denying fairys that might be real.

I am human and this is my condition. "Atheist" is just the label that fits me best right now.

Having some theist fap in front of me while posting a bunch of religious goo gah will certainly NOT convince me that god is real. I've read a bunch of that stuff.

"I am washed in the blood of christ son of the most high god" I like to say that around christians right after they give me that look that they think I am possesed by a demon, then I writhe around on the ground just to fuck with them. Well, when I was younger anyway, I'm a little more mature than that now.

Rhizo

[Anto Kennedy]

Fair enough Rhizo, I'm just concerned that many atheists (usually those who have only decided that they are atheists within the last few weeks and have read a few articles on teh internets) use the Christian connection to solar myths as a way of disvalidating the Gospels. The truth is of course that the use of solar imagery, in Mark's Gospel in particular, is an example of excellent craftsmanship on the part of the scribe.

Solar imagery has been used throughout human history to symbolize spiritual transformation even up until modern times. The works of William Blake are one major example and of course Nietzche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra, where the main character undergoes a transformation in the crescendo of the piece on the top of a mountain at dawn; looking out into the rising sun Zarathustra affirms Life and the Eternal Return. Beatiful.

A good topic to discuss would be Nietzche's works. If anyone wants to start the thread.