"Islamophobia"

[genkaus]

Approaching it from "culture" perspective, is not going to convince anyone. Simply calling it barbaric won't win hearts over. Converts are still converting, and it's growing fast, and 4 women convert per 1 man.

Islam is a complete way of life, it has principles giving direction in all sorts of issues, and whether it's delusional or not, the human nature is inclined to be religious. It looks for a purpose and believes in one early on in life.

While you see the Islamic culture as barbaric, it's the perception of beauty in this culture that makes it so strong to others.

To be honest, I think the west is afraid of the high honour of Islam and it's high expectations on humans.

It makes people feel uneasy. The Muslims have a high standard of what it means to be a good human... and the west is not living to the standard.

It hits their pride. They are afraid of it, because it exposes them in many senses. They are uneasy because of that.

To be honest, I'm more afraid of what passes for honor in Islam and the expectations it has from humans.

What makes me uneasy is the very standard of what they consider a "good" human - which I don't consider high at all.

My pride is hit. I consider it to be an affront to my pride as a rational human being to see what passes for Islamic culture today.

[Mystic]

So you disagree with me that atheists shouldn't oppose Islam?

Not on the cultural ground. They simply should disprove it logically and respectfully.

They shouldn't try to make it as if the morals of Islam are barbaric and try to shove their culture as superior.

I mean come on man, when is the white man going to stop degrading all cultures other then his own?

From Africa to China, to India to poor native Americans....it's got to stop...

If you truly feel you have a superior way...you don't need to degrade others.

[genkaus]

In fact, there was a time, when Islamic culture lead the world in education.

Yeah, when they were not being ruled by theology.

As for women rights, again, aside from clothing, women can do everything a man can do, in Islam. She can work, she can get an education, etc...

Can they now? So a woman can have more than one husband?

If you want to talk about the right of women showing their bodies, is the right of women to walk naked in the streets?

It sure as hell should be.

Even the west has limits on the clothing, but Islamic standard of "decency" is more "extreme"/"higher".

You have to understand that "extreme" doesn't mean "higher".

[Mystic]

To be honest, I'm more afraid of what passes for honor in Islam and the expectations it has from humans.

What makes me uneasy is the very standard of what they consider a "good" human - which I don't consider high at all.

My pride is hit. I consider it to be an affront to my pride as a rational human being to see what passes for Islamic culture today.

The white man for a very long has wanted others to bow to him. From India, to Africa, to Native Americans....

Now it's the same thing...except the Islamic culture is very defiant. Muslims refuse to bow down to the white man. They keep their heads high.

The white man loves to see everyone say, I must follow you. Sorry man.

Even if white man has a superior way, the very way the white man goes on about it, is not working but makes him look bad.

[genkaus]

The white man for a very long has wanted others to bow to him. From India, to Africa, to Native Americans....

Now it's the same thing...except the Islamic culture is very defiant. Muslims refuse to bow down to the white man. They keep their heads high.

The white man loves to see everyone say, I must follow you. Sorry man.

Even if white man has a superior way, the very way the white man goes on about it, is not working but makes him look bad.

Who is this "white man" you keep talking about? And what does he have to do with my argument?

[Mystic]

Who is this "white man" you keep talking about? And what does he have to do with my argument?

You don't even have an argument. You seem to take your assertions as arguments and other people must refute them all the time. You never go into details of your assertions, you simply state them.

You take it as ok to state your moral opinion but everyone else must justify there's with explanations.

What makes enforcing Hijaab less superior to allowing women showing off your body? It's your opinion, and it maybe true but Muslims don't share it.

It's fine. You might even objectively know allowing women to show off their bodies is better then forcing them to cover up.

But you know sometimes....silence is gold.

The west doesn't need to focus on other cultures being backwards.

Muslims are not obsessed with showing Hindus their culture is backward for their perspective.

What do you achieve by constantly telling others their way of life and perceptions are backward?

[Spectrum]

Spectrum, honestly the west has a superiority complex. They always think their culture is superior. Their way of life is superior.

I can't make generalizing statements about Islamic nations being barbaric, but you can make generalizing statements about Westerners being narcissists. How does that work, again?

why are trying to shove it down other cultures throat?

Why are you trying to ignore what I say?

Now, if Muslims coming into the West would like to keep the religion to themselves and adopt Western customs, we wouldn't have to worry.
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I am not asking for some purge of the Muslims within the West, but at the same time, I do not like the religion.
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Christianity and Islam have no power unless they are forced upon a population of people. Neither encourage autonomy and the freedom to explore other horizons.
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With that being said, I encourage you guys to take more time and criticize Islam.

I have a right to free speech, and I intend to use it. I'm not forcing anyone to adopt my viewpoints.

I don't see Chinese all afraid of Islamic culture and trying to show Chinese culture is superior. The Hindus seem to enjoy their culture without constant need to feel superior to other cultures or shove it down their throat.

I'm not of Eastern descent, nor do I reside within those nations. That's their business; I take no responsibility for their choices. Therefore, that has no bearing on what I intend to do and believe.

Calling others barbaric won't work and just makes you look like a bigot.

This again...
The fact is that Western nations are ahead of Muslim nations in social rights, education, science, economic policies, technology, infrastructure, and more. You cannot debate facts. Get the fuck over it. I never once said that Muslims are inferior, nor did I say I am superior. I have nothing against African tribes for instance, if that is how they want to live. Also, I can respect Eastern monks who search for ultimate psychological peace. However, I do not want that for the West, and neither do most Westerners. Stop being an ignoramus, and read what I actually say, instead of putting words into my mouth. To quote you, "calling others [bigots] won't work".

Honor killings have no basis in either Quran or Sunna.

Get to know this place, where honor killings have been known to occur extensively: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh#Religion

That province is nearly 100% Islamic.

By the way, there are places where honor killing is legal, and in others, like Pakistan, it happens often, and the police don't have the resources to stop it. The government of Pakistan considers honor killing to be a deep-seated issue, so maybe you should too.

Fundamentalists exist where the religion does. You do have a point, though you were not explicit: religion can be used for good or bad.

Right now, there is a lot of bad associated with Islam, and its morals are foreign to the West, who is secular right now. There is just no reason for Westerners to adopt Islam, which has yet to be tamed as Christianity has been.

Not on the cultural ground. They simply should disprove it logically and respectfully.

Too bad. With free speech, we can say what we want about Islam, or anything else for that matter (so long as we don't call for violence).
Free speech laws give me that right; now where do you get off on telling me, and other atheists, what to do?

They shouldn't try to make it as if the morals of Islam are barbaric and try to shove their culture as superior.

I didn't say we should do that... Stop making up false dichotomies, so you can feel morally superior.

I mean come on man, when is the white man going to stop degrading all cultures other then his own?

From Africa to China, to India to poor native Americans....it's got to stop...

Africans enslaved their own and sold people like products... The Mongols had the most violent, brutally savage armies the world has ever seen... The native Americans practiced slavery, and they put unwilling humans on altars to be sacrificed.

ALL humans are capable of great things, deplorable things, and anything in between. How dare you single out those of European descent. You just displayed racist sentiments, right there!

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Who is this "white man" you keep talking about? And what does he have to do with my argument?

He thinks it's okay to make vulgar, sweeping generalizations about White people. I guess we have to just accept that is part of his ideology.

[genkaus]

You don't even have an argument. You seem to take your assertions as arguments and other people must refute them all the time. You never go into details of your assertions, you simply state them.

To me, they seem pretty obvious. Which assertion would you like to be justified?

You take it as ok to state your moral opinion but everyone else must justify there's with explanations.

No. If asked, even I must justify it with explanation.

What makes enforcing Hijaab less superior to allowing women showing off your body?

Isn't it obvious? One is forcing women to do or wear what they may not want to do or wear, while the other is allowing them the freedom. It is the principle of freedom of choice that is crucial to all morality and this is but one aspect of that freedom. The more a morality seeks to restrict freedom the more it corrupts its own roots.

It's your opinion, and it maybe true but Muslims don't share it.

Then let them justify it.

It's fine. You might even objectively know allowing women to show off their bodies is better then forcing them to cover up.

But you know sometimes....silence is gold.

Not when it comes to subject like this.

The west doesn't need to focus on other cultures being backwards.

Who cares about what the west is doing?

Muslims are not obsessed with showing Hindus their culture is backward for their perspective.

Clearly you know little about Medieval Indian History. Or the current political climate.

What do you achieve by constantly telling others their way of life and perceptions are backward?

The hope that they'd improve it - Nah, I'm just doing it for the laughs.

[Mystic]

Isn't it obvious? One is forcing women to do or wear what they may not want to do or wear, while the other is allowing them the freedom.

So women should be able to walk naked in the street, simply all in the name of freedom.

Does this apply to work and school? Should school allow teachers to come in naked to class, all in the name of freedom?

Wow, yes your moral principles are obviously clear to everyone.


So it's corruption that the streets are not allowed to be filled with naked women and man. Should people be allowed to have sex in public as well?

Who cares if the kids see it or not? Since we don't want to be impinging on their freedom, right....

Then let them justify it.

They have their explanations. It's to restrict lust in society and force women to protect their dignity. They value dignity and honor of their daughters, more then, freedom for them to chose what they wear.

Why are they wrong? Freedom triumphs over all principles right? Prove it.

[genkaus]

So women should be able to walk naked in the street, simply all in the name of freedom.

Yes.

Does this apply to work and school? Should school allow teachers to come in naked to class, all in the name of freedom?

No. That would depend on the terms and conditions applicable to the workplace. For example, I'm not allowed to wear a casual attire to my work. The same principle would apply.

Wow, yes your moral principles are obviously clear to everyone.

So, there wouldn't be need for any more clarification?

So it's corruption that the streets are not allowed to be filled with naked women and man.

"Not allowed to be filled"? You assume that if it was allowed then they would be filled with naked people.

To be clear, I consider going out in the public naked to be both immoral and indecent. But for it to be a question of morality, it should be a question of that person's choice. By disallowing it, it is no longer within the purview of morality and therefore the basis is corrupted.

Should people be allowed to have sex in public as well?

Who cares if the kids see it or not? Since we don't want to be impinging on their freedom, right....

Not sure on that one - since I don't know what psychological harm it may or may not cause.

They have their explanations. It's to restrict lust in society and force women to protect their dignity.

Except, that dignity would mean nothing if it has to be protected forcefully.

They value dignity and honor of their daughters, more then, freedom for them to chose what they wear.

Except, the value those daughters attach to their own dignity and honor should take precedence over how much their fathers value it.

Further, the very idea that a woman's dignity or honor depends upon what she wears rather than who she is reeks of male chauvinism.

Why are they wrong? Freedom triumphs over all principles right? Prove it.

I already have. In a lengthy discourse in "Legalization if Polygamy thread". Read it.