FallentoReason 2.0

[FallentoReason]

I've probably mentioned before that deism is for me a mental truce between my skeptical brain and lofty sentiments. It's a spirituality grounded strictly in the natural universe. In fact, the natural universe is the basis for that sense of wonder. From the micro to the macro, I see a machine and looking at the human mind and human civilization, I see intent.

THIS.

I couldn't have described my current position more clearly than this.

[Norfolk And Chance]

So you readily admit that you are a wishful thinker and can't face the possibility that the universe is meaningless chaos?

[The Grand Nudger]

The no-God hypothesis folk would have you believe that, despite all those eons and eons and eons and eons of perpetual motion, uncaused, past-eternal quantum fluctuating universe/multiverse, that no atheist life form from the past, has ever managed to work out a way of sending an atheist greeting message into the future to tell the theists here on earth that the supernatural being called God does not exist.

(or souls, or angels, or demons...)

You're mistaken. Carvaka sends just such a message.

@DP.....amigo...say it ain't so...you're flirting with ID man........I love you waaaaaay to much....my emotions are interfering with my ability to treat this notion of "intent" with the harshness it deserves....

[jonb]

Now you bring it up Rhythm

The no-God hypothesis folk would have you believe that, despite all those eons and eons and eons and eons of perpetual motion, uncaused, past-eternal quantum fluctuating universe/multiverse, that no atheist life form from the past, has ever managed to work out a way of sending an atheist greeting message into the future to tell the theists here on earth that the supernatural being called God does not exist.

(or souls, or angels, or demons...)

They probably could not conceive of anybody being that stupid, similarly I have never once had to warn my kids not to eat the plumbing.

[FallentoReason]

So you readily admit that you are a wishful thinker and can't face the possibility that the universe is meaningless chaos?

Brace yourself, the strawmen are coming...

And when did I say I'm running away from any sort of fear like you make it out to be? To an extent, I actually do think it's all meaningless chaos, but things were set in place to allow for life to happen. Even life itself is chaotic. This is evident if one understands evolution properly.

To me, for this universe to not be chaotic, one would have to claim this Creator told us what the purpose of life was. I feel like there's a name for that sort of belief, hmm....

---

@DP.....amigo...say it ain't so...you're flirting with ID man........I love you waaaaaay to much....my emotions are interfering with my ability to treat this notion of "intent" with the harshness it deserves....

By all means, let it out! I'm not a child. I can handle grown-up thoughts

I don't really think I would call it Intelligent Design what I tend to believe. I'm pretty sure Intelligent Design is more on the theistic side of things anyways, which is rather yucky.

[SpecUVdust]

It's not about what's "yucky" and what's not... You believe in a designer/creator with a complete lack of evidence. I don't blame you though, as to believe in any god you must do so with no evidence and therefore, no reason.

[FallentoReason]

It's not about what's "yucky" and what's not... You believe in a designer/creator with a complete lack of evidence.

Correct. I don't have the evidence therefore making me Agnostic, which I believe everyone should be because it's the most honest position, given all the collective knowledge we have thus far.

I don't blame you though, as to believe in any god you must do so with no evidence

Agreed.

and therefore, no reason.

If you see a bunch of rocks on a plain which happen to be sitting in such a way as to form a circle, you can think of three ways in which it happened:

1) It was blind luck.
2) They were physically arranged like that by someone.
3) Someone thought of a process in which this would happen without ever coming in contact with the rocks.

#1 reflects the atheist position in a nutshell.

#2 reflects the theistic position in a nutshell. When I say "physically arranged" I'm alluding to the things that theists say like "I ran out of fuel on the freeway, so I prayed. God refilled my tank" where what they're claiming is that God directly intervened in the natural world.

#3 is what I believe, which to me is the Deistic position, where the Creator set forth the processes that we see today: solar systems, evolution, terraformation etc. (and even the order we see in the periodic table and physics phenomena).
My reasoning is that none of this was a coincidence, but at the same time we don't find this Creator mucking about in the natural world. What's done is done.

Therefore, I greatly oppose your idea that no evidence = no reason. Think of Deism as a hypothesis and NOT a theory. Of course, I acknowledge that it can't formally be a hypothesis because it can't be scientifically tested, but I'm simply demonstrating why I think I can rationally hold on to Deism without direct evidence of a Creator.

[SpecUVdust]

Everyone has a choice:
1- worship something which offers no evidence of its own existence.
2- worship the obvious(gravity, stars, the physical world, etc).
3- worship nothing(while thinking and theorizing), wait for evidence.

The universe is grandiose indeed, but it is not what we define as perfect. Not everything in the universe is so spherically beautiful, Many planetary systems would not offer life, etc., etc.
The universe IS chaotic. I don't think you argue that , though.

If there is a god or creator, then wait for it to intervene. Until then, focus on one's self and others and the universe as it pertains to us. Why slow down intelligence with unnecessary ideas. When asked if there is a god, an atheist doesn't say no, they say I don't give a fuck.

[FallentoReason]

Everyone has a choice:
1- worship something which offers no evidence of its own existence.
2- worship the obvious(gravity, stars, the physical world, etc).
3- worship nothing(while thinking and theorizing), wait for evidence.

What if #2 gives you reason to believe in a god like it did to me?

The universe is grandiose indeed, but it is not what we define as perfect. Not everything in the universe is so spherically beautiful, Many planetary systems would not offer life, etc., etc.
The universe IS chaotic. I don't think you argue that , though.

Agreed. This is why I would never believe in religion again because it's putting humanity on a pedestal which, in the face of all the chaos around us, is arrogance beyond this world.

If there is a god or creator, then wait for it to intervene. Until then, focus on one's self and others and the universe as it pertains to us. Why slow down intelligence with unnecessary ideas. When asked if there is a god, an atheist doesn't say no, they say I don't give a fuck.

To the contrary, I find that my Deistic inclinations enhance my experiences with reality. For example, the evidence shows that most drugs will destroy your body one way or another. That in itself is obviously something to take away and remember, but to me it's like the Creator is speaking and saying there's reason not to take those drugs because our bodies were never meant to be treated that way. Can you pick up on the subtlety there? On the one hand, the atheist definitely has the capacity to understand that the evidence shows they shouldn't do drugs (I don't doubt for a second that atheists are able to make wise decisions, don't get me wrong there) and on the other hand, to me the evidence in a way is saying you will not do drugs because the Creator never intended it to do you any good. Basically, the only "authority" in my life is the noble endeavour we call "science" because I believe there's good reason for why things are the way they are, and so sticking to what the universe tells us through science is bound to do you good.

[The Grand Nudger]

To an extent, I actually do think it's all meaningless chaos, but things were set in place to allow for life to happen. Even life itself is chaotic. This is evident if one understands evolution properly.

What things, were they "set"? When were they set? How where they set? Who set them? In short, evidence?

By all means, let it out! I'm not a child. I can handle grown-up thoughts

I don't really think I would call it Intelligent Design what I tend to believe. I'm pretty sure Intelligent Design is more on the theistic side of things anyways, which is rather yucky.

See above. You may not like to think of it as intelligent design, but the minute you start to claim that things were "set into place to allow for......." that's where you've pointed the boat. In your case it's a designed "something". My ID comment was directed more at DP though, who referenced facets of human biology and saw intent. Sadly reading your comments about drugs is pretty damning, you're an ID'er amigo.......You seem to feel that an intelligence designed us for certain somethings and not for others -drugs in this case-....what would you call that? Let me ask you a question, considering that many substances can be dissolved in a solvent (harming, altering, or otherwise "destroying" those substances), does that mean that the creator of the cosmos is telling us that those things weren't meant to be treated that way?