Prophets

[FallentoReason]

I'm from Australia, so what I've noticed is that most of the posting happens while I'm asleep. I woke up one day and read this thread http://atheistforums.org/thread-16077.html and wanted to chip in an idea about what a prophet is, but I saw that the thread moved on from that. But I thought maybe we should dedicate an entire thread to this topic.

I've just started reading Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason which starts off by Mr. Paine pointing out what he sees as fundamental problems in the Christian faith. He dedicates a few paragraphs to prophets and points out that our idea of what a "prophet" and "prophesying" is has changed from its original meaning. He points to two verses (possibly out of more) that indicate to us what a prophet really is:

(implicit reference)
1 Samuel 10:5
After that you shall come to Gibeathelohim, where there is a garrison of the Philistines. And there, as soon as you come to the city, you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and lyre before them, prophesying.

Ok, so we have a group of prophets who happen to like their music. Could be a coincidence.

(explicit reference)
1 Chronicles 25:1
David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as the Bible itself is stressing that a "prophet" is one who has musical talent and in no way is connected to the idea of predicting the future. Mr. Paine points out that we don't get told in any of these verses what the prophesying itself was about, because if it's simply playing songs and reciting poetry then clearly there's no need to speak of the concert itself they performed, as it's void of any real meaning.

I'll leave it there and see where discussion takes us.

[John V]

Meh, there are passages like Deut 18: 15-22 that stress predictions and say nothing about music.

Also note that the psalms were songs, and contain a fair number of future predictions.

Personally my take is that prophet can refer to anyone who receives and gives the word of god. It can be with or without music. It can be with or without predictions of the future.

[FallentoReason]

Meh, there are passages like Deut 18: 15-22 that stress predictions and say nothing about music.

Also note that the psalms were songs, and contain a fair number of future predictions.

Personally my take is that prophet can refer to anyone who receives and gives the word of god. It can be with or without music. It can be with or without predictions of the future.

Fair enough. Can I ask though; what do you specifically mean by "the word of God"? I ask because I went to a Christian friend's house the other day and we had a healthy discussion about where I'm at and where he's at. Basically, he acknowledges every last inconsistency found in the Bible and therefore deems it irrelevant to his faith in Jesus because (drum roll) he says the Bible isn't the "Word of God", but Jesus instead, as per John 1 (which ironically is within the thing he decided to chuck out).

On a side note, I can't help but imagine these "prophets" as being nothing more than your average bard, like the ones who collectively came up with the Iliad and Odyssey. I can see why they have such an elevated status though, because in a nutshell, the ancient world saw poetry as being somewhat... "sacred". I can't remember if it was the Greeks or Romans, but one of them had poets that would be commisioned to write a poem about their client because that would ensure that their client would have a sort of "eternal life" thanks to the "sacredness" that they attached to poetry.

[KichigaiNeko]

Profits?


Sounds like a religion to me

[ThomM]

The problem with "prophets" is the same problem that the christian religion has with the "christ" and "genesis" - when the stories were made up by their human authors they did two things

1 - They failed to fill in their fantasies with material to fill in the background of the characters in their fairy tales - so for instance - we have no birth date for the christ - since he was NOT TRULY born - and they never designated one. WE all know that December 25th is simply the conversion of the Saturnalia celebration of the Romans - to a christian purpose - and that the early christians did not celebrate Xmas.

2 - Because the characters were used by more than one writer - they made many varied and conflicting claims that contradict each other - making it obvious that these are "fictions" - because no single person could fulfill or be all the things claimed

Example - ALMIGHTY and ALL KNOWING cannot both be true. IF a god is all knowing - THE ONLY thing that can happen is what the god knows - there is only ONE possible result in every decision - and no one - including the god - can do something otherwise (NO one had the ability to do something that the god does not already know - even the god)
So - FREE WILL does not exist - even if YOU claim that the god knows what YOU will choose - you really are not "FREE" to change your mind and choose something that the god does not know.

Once you realize that most of the OT has turned out to be MYTH and LEGEND (No Exodus - no Adam and EVE - no Great Flood - no Tower of Babel - and genesis is nonsense) - the idea that you must make sense out of the prophets is a joke -

[John V]

Fair enough. Can I ask though; what do you specifically mean by "the word of God"? I ask because I went to a Christian friend's house the other day and we had a healthy discussion about where I'm at and where he's at. Basically, he acknowledges every last inconsistency found in the Bible and therefore deems it irrelevant to his faith in Jesus because (drum roll) he says the Bible isn't the "Word of God", but Jesus instead, as per John 1 (which ironically is within the thing he decided to chuck out).

I'd say the bible is the word of god, and you note in your parenthetical the irony of claiming faith in Jesus while dismissing the Bible. It's also noteworthy that Jesus often quoted Scripture himself.

When I say the word of god, it's not the entire word of god, or all words uttered by prophets. The Bible speaks of some with the gift of prophecy without recording any of their prophecies. These were propbably given word for their local church and immediate needs.

On a side note, I can't help but imagine these "prophets" as being nothing more than your average bard, like the ones who collectively came up with the Iliad and Odyssey. I can see why they have such an elevated status though, because in a nutshell, the ancient world saw poetry as being somewhat... "sacred". I can't remember if it was the Greeks or Romans, but one of them had poets that would be commisioned to write a poem about their client because that would ensure that their client would have a sort of "eternal life" thanks to the "sacredness" that they attached to poetry.

Personally I can't imagine Paul or Moses as bards.

[KichigaiNeko]

Are we confusing Prophets with Profits??

Seems to me that ALL religions "Profitise" from their various prophecies

[Minimalist]

Also note that the psalms were songs, and contain a fair number of future predictions.

Or would if they had been written when fools like you claim they were.... but they weren't.

Are we confusing Prophets with Profits??

Churches never make that mistake, Kichi. Most lucrative scam in human history.

[FallentoReason]

Fair enough. Can I ask though; what do you specifically mean by "the word of God"? I ask because I went to a Christian friend's house the other day and we had a healthy discussion about where I'm at and where he's at. Basically, he acknowledges every last inconsistency found in the Bible and therefore deems it irrelevant to his faith in Jesus because (drum roll) he says the Bible isn't the "Word of God", but Jesus instead, as per John 1 (which ironically is within the thing he decided to chuck out).

I'd say the bible is the word of god, and you note in your parenthetical the irony of claiming faith in Jesus while dismissing the Bible. It's also noteworthy that Jesus often quoted Scripture himself.

When I say the word of god, it's not the entire word of god, or all words uttered by prophets. The Bible speaks of some with the gift of prophecy without recording any of their prophecies. These were propbably given word for their local church and immediate needs.

What do we make of the known added verses? Basically what I'm asking is where's your threshold where things stop being "the word of God" because of reason A, B and/or C?

On a side note, I can't help but imagine these "prophets" as being nothing more than your average bard, like the ones who collectively came up with the Iliad and Odyssey. I can see why they have such an elevated status though, because in a nutshell, the ancient world saw poetry as being somewhat... "sacred". I can't remember if it was the Greeks or Romans, but one of them had poets that would be commisioned to write a poem about their client because that would ensure that their client would have a sort of "eternal life" thanks to the "sacredness" that they attached to poetry.

Personally I can't imagine Paul or Moses as bards.

The extract from 1 Samuel I quoted is actually about Saul... he joined in on the "prophesying" that these musicians were doing.

As for Moses, well...

Exodus 15:1,2
Then Moses and the people of Israel sang this song to the LORD, saying,
"I will sing to the LORD...The LORD is my strength and my melody..."

Apparently, Moses was a Levite and the Levites were known for their musical prowess:

1 Chronicles 15:22
Kenaniah the head Levite was in charge of the singing; that was his responsibility because he was skillful at it.

In the Old Testament, the main people with a ministry in music were Levites. There were probably no others engaged in this ministry full-time. Like the high priest himself, (Cf Hebrews 5:4) Levites did not volunteer for ministry, but were chosen by God. (Numbers 3:6, 12; 8:16, 19) They were chosen solely on the basis of their parentage. (1 Chronicles 25:1) Talent was not the critical factor. (Cf 1 Chronicles 25:8) They were literally born for this specific ministry.

http://www.net-burst.net/dove/ch8.htm