The logical consequences of omnipotence

[catfish]

He was a good friend of mine.

[Jackalope]

I never understood a single word he said, but I helped him drink his wine.

[Darkstar]

I'm saying that with several different passages stating the scribes, prophets and priests lied, you have to discern what is real and what is made up. (of course you're welcome to reject all of it)
Combine that with 3 separate places in the Bible that states that God wrote his laws on the hearts of men and you have what it takes to determine right from wrong on your own irregardless of what the fundies and atheists say.
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By "right and wrong" are you referring to burnt offerings in terms of a decision of morality? If god wrote his laws on the hearts of men, then the commandments, etc. are made up. I, for instance, don't think slavery is okay. Maybe the scribes lied about god claiming to write the law on our hearts. So, yeah, I reject all of it (but not just due to contradictions). If the scribes lied in the OT, then why not the NT too?

The problem is that there is no definitive reading of the text; even if we assumed it to be fiction and suspended disbelief for that reason, we still couldn't reconcile the bible with itself...then again, that may have been your point in the first place.

[catfish]

If you don't think your "heart" (conscience) exists, then whether or not God wrote the laws there or not is irrelevant. I believe we have morals that are not formed by society, that doesn't mean that society doesn't have a hand in shaping what we call "morals" as we mature. Watch small children and mentally challenged people, you may see what I see in them. I actually agree with the 10 commandments, they seem perfectly acceptable to me. Aside from the God ones, do you reject any of them?

I'm not sure if you've followed any of my threads, but I know the "scribes" lied in the NT, the inclusion of Hades and Tartarus proves that to me. However, I do believe some of it, especially the ones that predict that shit like Greek myths would be introduced. You don't need to follow the "written" law or even be aware of it. I can't call half of that oppresive shit "God's law" and the bible never tells you that you have to believe all of it. In fact, there are instructions in numerous places to use your reasoning to determine truth. "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." and all that stuff.
Read Romans 2 and tell me thoughts on it if you don't mind, that is my main philosophy for rejecting the crap that I am sure is fucked up, man-made shit... It doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, what matters in what's in your heart and your intentions...
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[Darkstar]

If you don't think your "heart" (conscience) exists, then whether or not God wrote the laws there or not is irrelevant. I believe we have morals that are not formed by society, that doesn't mean that society doesn't have a hand in shaping what we call "morals" as we mature.

Exactly. And yet people try to use the bible as a moral guide all the time. (Also, I don't think "god wrote" anything in us, but would defer to a naturalistic explanation of altruism, not that this is important to the accuracy of the bible.

I actually agree with the 10 commandments, they seem perfectly acceptable to me. Aside from the God ones, do you reject any of them?

Them seem a bit incomplete (i.e. child molestation is allowed by them). The problem with absolute commandments is that they do not apply the same in all situations, and they are incomplete. It is obviously wrong to rape someone, but the ten commandments do not say "thou shalt not rape", so by that standard alone it is okay.

I think this video explains it well:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoNqSrA7Mos
For some reason the video won't embed for me, and it seems like I'm not the only one with this problem.

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In fact, there are instructions in numerous places to use your reasoning to determine truth. "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." and all that stuff.

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[a]


7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.
8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.

It doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, what matters in what's in your heart and your intentions...
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Yep.

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EDIT: Huh? The video wouldn't appear whan I hit "preview", but it is in the final post...

[catfish]

I never claimed the 10 commandments were complete, just that I don't disagree with them. As for rape, thou shalt not steal can and sometimes is, interpreted as "shalt not kidnap".
Dawkins? Please, he makes the same mistake that fundies and others make. He operates his debunking of the Bible as if it were supposed to be 100% correct. Did you know the word translated into "jealous" could be either "jealous " or "zealous"? I bet Dawkins wouldn't admit that... Do you think his speech would hold up to scrutiny if you showed him the verses I showed you? He is like so many other atheists, he holds the "infallible" position when there is not one verse that ever says that a person is supposed to believe every word...

I look at your Proverbs quote as actually supporting my position. I.E. trust your heart, don't try to reason your way into believeing that something "evil" is good. Folks "reasoned" excuses for burning withes, starting wars, allowing crimes to be commited. I think it's the same reasoning that allows people to believe all the crap that they've been taught. Personally, I can never accept sacrifice as being good, yet folks like to "reason" away the evilness of human sacrifice and then call it "good". Fuck that, I trust my heart and my God and there's no way in Hades I could ever accept it as being righteous.
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[Darkstar]

He is like so many other atheists, he holds the "infallible" position when there is not one verse that ever says that a person is supposed to believe every word...

I am often confused by the "falliable position". Neither Dawkins nor I thinks the bible is infalliable; we both think it is seriously flawed. The problem is, I see the bible as pure fiction, so it can't make a mistake in regards to what god said because god never said anything. If you treat the bible as fiction, it seems odd to ask if the bible itself is a canonical account of events mentioned only within its own pages. I would compare it to arguing that the events in the Harry Potter books are an inaccurate potrayal of the real Harry Potter.

I look at your Proverbs quote as actually supporting my position. I.E. trust your heart, don't try to reason your way into believeing that something "evil" is good. Folks "reasoned" excuses for burning withes, starting wars, allowing crimes to be commited.

I see you put reasoned in quotes, as in bad reasons. Which is true, of course.

I think it's the same reasoning that allows people to believe all the crap that they've been taught. Personally, I can never accept sacrifice as being good, yet folks like to "reason" away the evilness of human sacrifice and then call it "good". Fuck that, I trust my heart and my God and there's no way in Hades I could ever accept it as being righteous.
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People try to rationalize what is in the bible, but even if they didn't, they would still blindly accept it as true. People who are emotionally committed to religion will keep doing what they are doing if they follow their hearts. I think that one should be able to reason away these things, rather than in favor of them.

And yes, a conscience would tell you that these things are bad already, so...I guess the only differences here are:
1. I think the bible is actual fiction, whereas you see it as an inaccurate potrayal of something real.
2. You think a conscience is god in your heart letting you know what is right and wrong, and I think it is natural.