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RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 2:24 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 2:25 am by Something completely different.)
(January 22, 2013 at 2:12 am)Gilgamesh Wrote: The fallacy of Vagueness occurs only when the appearance of soundness in an argument depends upon vagueness in its terms.
I am just going to put away with that accusation of being, vague, since shell brings it up everytime since playing with words is all she can.
Maybe I should post articles in every single post I make.
Well, the last person I want to be called vague by is the freak here.
Quote:Effects of child sexual abuse include guilt and self-blame, flashbacks, nightmares, insomnia, fear of things associated with the abuse (including objects, smells, places, doctor's visits, etc.), self-esteem issues, sexual dysfunction, chronic pain, addiction, self-injury, suicidal ideation, somatic complaints, depression,[16] post-traumatic stress disorder,[17] anxiety,[18] other mental illnesses including borderline personality disorder[19] and dissociative identity disorder,[19] propensity to re-victimization in adulthood,[20] bulimia nervosa,[21] physical injury to the child, among other problems.[22]
Quote:Child sexual abuse involves persuading or forcing a child to take part in sexual activities, or encouraging a child to behave in sexually inappropriate ways.
Sexual abuse can be very difficult to identify. However, there are steps you can take to help keep a child safe from sexual abuse and to protect a child if you suspect, or discover, that they have been abused.
Now the law of my country defines the age of consent at 17-16 meaning that those are allowed to have sex with each other. At the age of 18 there is still an excuse to have sex with someone who is 17 or 16.
At reaching the age of 21 one it is seen as childabuse if one has sex with someone younger than 18.
I find this fine.
(January 22, 2013 at 2:23 am)Shell B Wrote: Germans, you can be an utter dolt sometimes. I was responding to Gilgamesh, not you. You got all butt hurt and went to personal attacks when I was defending your fucking position. Dumbass.
I dont care what you do!!! it is 7 in the morning and I am not even in the condition to spell my own name!
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 2:28 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 2:32 am by Shell B.)
(January 22, 2013 at 2:12 am)Gilgamesh Wrote: The fallacy of Vagueness occurs only when the appearance of soundness in an argument depends upon vagueness in its terms. I've already said that there is no 'magic age.' I deem it appropriate when the individual deems it appropriate for themselves (they want to have sex.)
Gibberish. You are discussing a term that comes in small increments, seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years, decades, etc. The soundness in this argument depends upon clarifying the terms. Otherwise, it is valid, but not sound. To set absolutely no terms in regard to age, you are saying that you can take away or add a year and it makes no difference. The problem with this is that the spectrum ends in zero. For your argument to be sound, you would have to be saying that there is nothing wrong with having sex with a two month old, as long as it cooed in an accepting manner. Given that there is a cut off age where puberty has never occurred in a human, you could logically set that as the magic age, but you are clearly not thinking it through.
(January 22, 2013 at 2:24 am)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: I dont care what you do!!! it is 7 in the morning and I am not even in the condition to spell my own name!
I would say that is hardly the time to get up in arms with someone who wasn't even fucking arguing with you, you intolerable pissant. I agree with you on many occasions. Fuck, I even think you are funny sometimes. However, your lack of ability to read what the fuck I am writing before you get all testy and personal is ridiculous. Technically, that was an unprovoked personal attack. I would resort to gratuitous use of exclamation points, but I do try ever so hard not to post when I can't spell my own name and get testy for no reason. Now, relax, dude. I have only just now responded to you, so you can ignore everything else in the thread that I have written, as it does not apply to you.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 2:37 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 2:39 am by Gilgamesh.)
(January 22, 2013 at 2:28 am)Shell B Wrote: Gibberish. You are discussing a term that comes in small increments, seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months, years, decades, etc. The soundness in this argument depends upon clarifying the terms. Otherwise, it is valid, but not sound. To set absolutely no terms in regard to age, you are saying that you can take away or add a year and it makes no difference. The problem with this is that the spectrum ends in zero-
This is where I get lost. I don't know what you mean. I'm thinking that once someone has started puberty, and if they now have the desire for sex, and if mature enough mentally, should be aloud to have sex. Of course, what constitutes a mature mind is subjective.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 2:52 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 2:54 am by Something completely different.)
Desire for sex? First off, to be capable to enter a sexual releationship one needs to be capable to understand that desire, to be educated on sex "aufgeklährt" as we say.
Second, puperty is reached at the age of 11 for a eleven year old child to engage in any kind of sexual activity is not justifyable.
Because one cannot expect kids at that age to be well enought educated on sex, aswell as it might encourage people of older age to engage in sexual activities with such young kids.
Third, which is why a age of consent is determined by when a child which has reached puperty might be capable to understand the concept of sexuality, meaning not just biological but also legal matters, a age must be reached where the teenage is capable to understand when he or she would be sexualy abused.
Fourth a teen is not an adult, an adult is someone who is capable to take responsibility for his own actions in a court of law. This age is determined by a countries legislation and is in most cases set between the age of 18 - 21. At that age one is no longer considered a teen nore a child and therefor expects from that person to act responsibly towards children and teens.
To use someone younger who might not even understand sexuality for ones sexual plessure as an adult is abuse and therefor should be punishable.
And the punishment should be severe since because of the resulting trauma and effects of sexual abuse it is in some countries even acknowleged to be a form of tourchure.
(January 22, 2013 at 2:28 am)Shell B Wrote: I would say that is hardly the time to get up in arms with someone who wasn't even fucking arguing with you, you intolerable pissant. I agree with you on many occasions. Fuck, I even think you are funny sometimes. However, your lack of ability to read what the fuck I am writing before you get all testy and personal is ridiculous. Technically, that was an unprovoked personal attack. I would resort to gratuitous use of exclamation points, but I do try ever so hard not to post when I can't spell my own name and get testy for no reason. Now, relax, dude. I have only just now responded to you, so you can ignore everything else in the thread that I have written, as it does not apply to you.
I guess first impressions stick the longest. I will try to forget the image I have of of you, of being a arrogant imature whatever who get`s some kick out of annoying people.
And try to be nice or at least take you serious.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 2:57 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 3:00 am by Shell B.)
(January 22, 2013 at 2:37 am)Gilgamesh Wrote: This is where I get lost. I don't know what you mean. I'm thinking that once someone has started puberty, and if they now have the desire for sex, and if mature enough mentally, should be aloud to have sex. Of course, what constitutes a mature mind is subjective.
You start puberty well before you are capable of truly having/enjoying sex. Boys start puberty before their sexual organs are fully developed. Basically, what I am saying is that we have never observed sexual maturity below a certain age, though I honestly haven't bothered to look up what that is. For the sake of clarity, you could have stated that age or hinted at it, anyway. To be honest, though, I now don't give a shit if you piss him off. He does hold grudges and now I don't particularly care if there is coherent conversation in this thread.
By the way, Germans, I do not bring up vagueness in arguments with you. I bring up inconsistency. We've had the conversation twice, which is hardly every conversation I have because "words are all I have." Also, that is such a ludicrous statement. In a debate, words are all anyone has. Sorry if mine are more coherent than yours. I will try to dumb it down for you next time.
(January 22, 2013 at 2:52 am)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: I guess first impressions stick the longest. I will try to forget the image I have of of you, of being a arrogant imature whatever who get`s some kick out of annoying people.
And try to be nice or at least take you serious.
Don't bother. I'm seen in a negative light by more than one person here and it definitely shows a person's intellectual integrity when they are more concerned with whether they think I am mature or polite enough than if my argument is good. While I personally don't dislike you nor will I hold you to the silliness of conversations long past, it will not concern me in the slightest if you think poorly of me. Indeed, it is better for a person to think less of you than what you are than to expect more from you than that of which you are capable.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 3:01 am
No in a debate facts, statistics and studies is all one has, words simply formulate and express these.
And can be used in the most deceiving and dishonest way.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 3:01 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 3:05 am by Gilgamesh.)
(January 22, 2013 at 2:57 am)Shell B Wrote: You start puberty well before you are capable of truly having/enjoying sex.
See, my entire line of thinking held premise in the assumption that one starts to desire sex early through puberty. Thanks for clearing it up. Although, it still holds that I think it's okay for someone to have sex (with whoever, as long as it's consensual and the someone in question is mature enough) when they start having sexual urges.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 3:05 am
Germans, the forum member who you are accusing of supporting child rape is not actually supporting child rape. Rather, he was only posting arguments/explanations on why he believes that Muhammad was not a pedophile since other members brought it up, but that is not the same thing as supporting child rape. I think that is perfectly fine and it doesn't violate any of the the forum rules.
As for the age of the girl (Aisha), the thing is that the exact age of her marriage and the consummation of her marriage is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she must have been at least older than nine years of age when she got married to Muhammad.
- According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
- Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
- Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.
- Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
- According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
- Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Muhammad reports that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”. It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq. Another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.
- According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
- According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
- According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.
- Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 3:14 am (This post was last modified: January 22, 2013 at 3:21 am by Something completely different.)
Rayaan. How would you interpret this:
(January 21, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote: Response: Exactly. You state that it's wrong to have sex with a mature 9 year old who has reached puberty. Yet when asked what harm does it cause, you can't name a thing. So it is not wrong. Debunked as usual.
To justify sex with a 9 year old girl, is to justify unconsensual sex, which is rape, which is a crime.
I could say that under historic circumstances it was usual for children to be married in medieval times, which was right back then but isnt today.
But he tries to justify it with the claim that as soon as puperty is reached, a person is up for grabs.
Which in the end is simply a attempt to justify the sexual abuse of minors.
+ sexual maturity is reached by a male human at the age of 20 with a female at about aproxematly the same time.
By sexual maturity meaning the full evolvement of the reproductive organs. It is well known that sexual activity by people younger than 20 is possible.
Puperty is not the benchmark which should be used to define at which age sexual activity should be allowed and with whom.
The benchmark for that should be the individual responsibility which the juristiction thinks is appropriat - who on the other hand base their deciasions out of conclusions from behavioral sexual studies and pedegogical studies.
Certainly not by a islamist troll and an idiot who has the delusion that he is funny.
RE: Question on freedom to voice support for criminal actions?
January 22, 2013 at 1:48 pm
(January 22, 2013 at 3:01 am)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: No in a debate facts, statistics and studies is all one has, words simply formulate and express these.
And can be used in the most deceiving and dishonest way.
And precisely what facts do you possess that state a 14-year old individual *cannot possibly be* in a consensual relationship with a 40-year old?
There are young women out there who *do* want to be 'taken care of' by a kind older man who gives them one of the most sought-after things in this world:
