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A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
#1
A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
Hello

Islam as a religion, is something more like a mystery, especially its history. The Arabic society was based on storytelling & oral communication ; reading was scarce & only few in the society were able to read.

The revolution in writing, reading & learning was never reached until the 8th century, before that, people used to memorize what they hear.
Mose Islamic sources were written during that period or after it ; nothing was written before that about religion except the Quran.

I'm trying to validate how accurate these Islamic sources are, how they were written and the amount of manipulation in these sources.
=======

The earliest & most trusted book is called "al-bukhari". Al bukhari -which is the name of the author- is a book gathering quotes that the prophet had said.

There was many attempts to write books like that earlier, but as I stated above, the educational level during that time was weak & scarce.

The way al-bukhari used to write his book is really simple.

In each city or village, there was other scholars who are known for their "Strong memory & honesty", who used to memorize "quotes which the prophet said".

These people received these quotes from friends, other scholars, parents...etc. Some of them wrote what they heard, many didn't & just memorized.

Al-bukhari used to visit those people, write what they know, tag their names to the quote, then ask them about "How they got it".

How they got the quote, is checked by what is called "sanad". The sanad is the chain of people who told you that.

Example :

==
Khalid told me that he heard from samah, which heard from Suha, that Ahmed, who heard from Jamal said : "AtlasS sucks".

The "Sanad" of this quote would be :

Khalid said, that samah told him, that Suha told her, that Ahmed told her, that Jamal said : "AtlasS sucks".

Al-bukhari would then go through the names and make a list :
Khalid
Samah
Suha
Ahmed
Jamal

and make sure that all these people existed, and that they were "good Muslims".

Example ended.
==

This method of writing doesn't provide any kind of accuracy. Given the fact that most of the people who compose the "Sanad" are dead, then it's literally impossible to make sure.

Al-Bukhari didn't put in consideration, that if only one person in that chain "didn't exist", then it's a disaster ; his book then is nothing more than a "tale" told by somebody.
This was the only method to check if a certain "hadith" is correct or false.

The contradictions in these sources are amazing, you can find a hadith which contradicts another in the same page, sometimes other books contradict each other.

Examples :

1) Jesus is white with a slight "redness", he also has a curly hair
2) Jesus is not white (has an olive skin) with a straight hair
3)The Anti-Christ's left eye is blind
4)The Anti-Christ's right eye is blind
The list goes on. Download the English version of Al-Bukhari & see for yourself.

Sometimes, those books contradict the Quran.

In the Quran, the prophet didn't receive anything else from god except the Quran itself.

In al-bukhari & all the other islamic sources, god told mohammed (everything), he even showed him the future. He even told him the rank of each of his companions in the afterlife.

A believe like this -even though all muslims believe in it- is contradicting the Quran in many, many verses. Some scholars have said that, while others remain silent just to keep al-bukhari's reputation "clean".

I hope this provided you with a good idea about why people like me, categorize muslims into two factions :

1-Fundimantlists -like me- who follow the Quran only
2-Sunnah, Shiah, Soufi , who follow those books & consider as strong as the Quran.

Fundamentalist Islam is forgotten now, in order to be a muslim you must believe in these books.

Each faction in islam believes in certain sources & consider it equivalent to the Quran. Those are the same muslims who believe in stoning for adultry, killing of homosexuals, aisha was 9, Mohammad knew the future, god has hands & legs, mohammed sits next to god in heaven ...etc

Conclusion : most debatable features in Islam are not in the Quran ; they are in these books.

Written by humans after 300 years of the event..those books cannot be trusted.
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#2
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
Quote:The Arabic society was based on storytelling & oral communication ; reading was scarce & only few in the society were able to read.

True of all societies in antiquity.

Moreover, there were degrees of literacy then as now.

The Romans attained a literacy rate of about 10% mainly by teaching military recruits how to read Latin. But just because you could read the duty roster for cleaning the latrine did not mean that you could read advanced philosophical texts. That was reserved to the upper classes alone.
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#3
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
The Quran was put together years after Mohammed died from fragments written on parchments, pieces of bone and from memorised oral accounts it wasn't straight from Mohammeds mouth to paper it was assembled and collected together from a mishmash much like the Bible. But I'd give it the benefit of the doubt that it represents what Mohammed said the same as I would regard the hadith as what Mohammed did. There's no double standard there.
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#4
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
(February 13, 2013 at 2:03 pm)Minimalist Wrote: True of all societies in antiquity.

Moreover, there were degrees of literacy then as now.

The Romans attained a literacy rate of about 10% mainly by teaching military recruits how to read Latin. But just because you could read the duty roster for cleaning the latrine did not mean that you could read advanced philosophical texts. That was reserved to the upper classes alone.

I remember that this habit also existed in Christian Europe also, the Church monopolized education, a very disgusting habit.

What helped the spread of knowledge though within Islamic societies, is the elimination of this method of categorization. Since the Quran is written, teaching people how to read it would be an act of charity, which is why scholars turned mosques into libraries & mini-schools.

As I said many times ; minimalist : religion does produce good acts.. I believe that what Muslims did during that era broke the monopolization of knowledge.

(February 13, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Zone Wrote: The Quran was put together years after Mohammed died from fragments written on parchments, pieces of bone and from memorised oral accounts it wasn't straight from Mohammeds mouth to paper it was assembled and collected together from a mishmash much like the Bible. But I'd give it the benefit of the doubt that it represents what Mohammed said the same as I would regard the hadith as what Mohammed did. There's no double standard there.

It's different, Zone. If you read the Quran in arabic you would understand. 300 years aren't 2 years. Notice that they did gather it in a very tight timeline, which gives a minimum chance of error.

If something was wrong in this book I would've known. It's flawless when it comes to language & context. The context would've got screwed if it was fake, just like the hadiths.

It's hard to find 600 pages which doesn't contradict themselves not even in a single word.

I read it many times & tried to fetch context errors. There are None.
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#5
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
(February 14, 2013 at 8:05 am)AtlasS Wrote: It's different, Zone. If you read the Quran in arabic you would understand. 300 years aren't 2 years. Notice that they did gather it in a very tight timeline, which gives a minimum chance of error.

If something was wrong in this book I would've known. It's flawless when it comes to language & context. The context would've got screwed if it was fake, just like the hadiths.

It's hard to find 600 pages which doesn't contradict themselves not even in a single word.

I read it many times & tried to fetch context errors. There are None.

I'm not sure how a deliberately manufactured collection of Jewish and Christian myths can contain errors, the Book of Mormon will be free of errors as well. But while the Quran may not contain errors as you would call them it would seem to me at least to contain contradictions. But the Quran is comparable in composition and time span to the writting of gospels of the Bible. There's good Hitchens video on this subject.



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#6
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
The Quran admits that in many verses, that a similarity does exist between three religions because they were one once.

You see,zone, the problem with Islam is that almost any argument has an answer which opens up another possible path.

I don't want you to think that I'm just contradicting what you say ignorantly, my brain works by trying to identify all possible paths -typical for a programmer-, if I didn't find any possible path I would say that.

But on this argument precisely, mohammed already said that the Quran contains a message almost identical to those in the bible & the torah.
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#7
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
(February 14, 2013 at 10:33 am)AtlasS Wrote: But on this argument precisely, mohammed already said that the Quran contains a message almost identical to those in the bible & the torah.

But that does mean that if you doubt the historicity of the Bible then you're going to equally doubt the Quran as well.
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#8
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
Quote:I remember that this habit also existed in Christian Europe also, the Church monopolized education, a very disgusting habit.

I don't know about "disgusting habit," I suspect that is just modern bias creeping in.

Literacy is an expensive skill to acquire and it is not unreasonable that people with no use for it would not bother to attain the skill. Your average peasant farmer worked from sun up to sun down in a subsistence economy. He did not have the time to read nor the ability to purchase reading material which was rare and expensive.
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#9
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
Cool post. Im interested. How do you like prayer? And how do you know about events in muhammad's life. Do you accept sira litrature?
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#10
RE: A real study about Islamic sources & Hadiths :
(February 14, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Zone Wrote: But that does mean that if you doubt the historicity of the Bible then you're going to equally doubt the Quran as well.

No, not at all. The reason behind the Quran is to fix the corruption which reached the bible. The bible you see now is not the real deal, and I have the evidence actually.

It's not a direct speech from god in its whole like the Quran, it's a collection of stories, visions & events which Saints have wrote ; that's not the direct word from god, the bible of today is the same as the Islamic "Hadith", it's a collection rather than documenting a direct speech from god to Jesus.

Yes, parts of it contain that direct speech, but not all of it. Almost like a mixture between the Quran & the Hadith -for example-.

That's our concern with the bible, and that's why we don't take it as a whole for granted. The same reason also why the Quran has also came, to be a direct speech from god from A to Z.

(February 14, 2013 at 12:57 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:I remember that this habit also existed in Christian Europe also, the Church monopolized education, a very disgusting habit.

I don't know about "disgusting habit," I suspect that is just modern bias creeping in.

Literacy is an expensive skill to acquire and it is not unreasonable that people with no use for it would not bother to attain the skill. Your average peasant farmer worked from sun up to sun down in a subsistence economy. He did not have the time to read nor the ability to purchase reading material which was rare and expensive.

mmm, I might agree on that, makes sense.
But come on, there was a monopoly over knowledge at that time. because the amount of ignorance was insane.

It was better during the time of Alfred the great, the guy spread education between everybody. But later, it was clear that what he did stopped by somebody else, and for some reason the church remained the only place to find people who can actually read.

(February 14, 2013 at 4:46 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Cool post. Im interested. How do you like prayer? And how do you know about events in muhammad's life. Do you accept sira litrature?

Hi.

I didn't understand your question : "how do you like prayer"

About the events in the prophet's life, I actually think they are not that important to my faith. I believe in god, I also believe that Mohammed peace be upon him, followed the Quran only. If he received anything extra, god would've told us.

The sira to me is nothing more than an ancient script written by somebody who claimed that this is the story of the Prophet. I would read it, compare what I read with the Quran, if they match I'll try to fetch a lesson from that, learn the lesson.
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