Topless protesters celebrate the popes resignation in Paris

[Gabriel Syme]

I don't know if posting the article here is ok or not so I left it out until someone says it's k, there are topless women in it so I just wanted to play it safe.
Anyway women went topless in the streets of Paris and went into the Notre Dame cathedral and then disrupted activities there. They eventually got thrown out.
I thought it was interesting and wanted to hear your thoughts. Too extreme? I personally think this is something that makes us look bad. Even if they weren't atheist.

Hi mate

No, atheists need not fear - this does make you look bad. These women were not atheists, they are feminists. Even if they were atheists, it would be unfair to judge all atheists by their behaviour.

The group (FEMEN) started in Ukraine, trying to prevent exploitation of Ukrainian women by rich westerners who go to the country to buy sex. To stop such exploitation is a very noble and worthwile aim.

However, some of these feminists have decided that they would much rather be western media celebrities, than people who work for justice.

Accordingly, some of them moved to Paris, where they now carry out a range of cheap publicity stunts (such as the event you mention) as directed by their financial backers (left wing / "rights" groups etc).

Their targets are not chosen based on any principle, but purely on the amount of publicity it might generate, or the amount of easy / cheap praise they might win.

I am not sure of their problem with the Catholic Church (which is likely just an 'enemy of convenience', more than anything) - I think whatever hollow notion of opposition they have adopted is loosely based on Church teaching about homosxuality and the male priesthood.

Their behaviour is of course disgusting, freedom of worship is defined as a fundamental human right and to disrupt others rights is then unacceptable.

We should note the last people who used to burst into religious buldings to attack or disrespect the people there were the Nazi Brownshirts, who behaved this way towards Jews and Synagogues in 1930s Germany.

And while a topless woman might be visually more appealling than a truncheon wielding SA man, the sentiment and malice involved in their actions is just the same.

So, before any simpleton pours gushing praise over them, it would be worth analysing their behaviour in a clear headed way.

At the end of the day, all their infantile behaviour achieves is to undermine the message of feminism. These women had a great chance to raise serious issues affecting Ukrainian women, but chose cheap celebrity for themselves instead.

When people hear about them, they dont think of exploited women, they think of how they cheaply exploit others for their own publicity.

It says a lot about the standard of their behaviour that most of the media - much of which itself is strongly anti-Catholic - chose to largely ignore this incident. (It wasnt widely reported at all, this forum is the only reason I knew of it.)

So, in addition to being puerile and offensive, the actions of these women are also wholly irrelevant. If they could get past their own inflated self-importance, they would see this themselves and so wonder what the point of it all was.

Cheers
GS

[Mystical]

I am not sure of their problem with the Catholic Church (which is likely just an 'enemy of convenience', more than anything) - I think whatever hollow notion of opposition they have adopted is loosely based on Church teaching about homosxuality and the male priesthood.

Their behaviour is of course disgusting, freedom of worship is defined as a fundamental human right and to disrupt others rights is then unacceptable.

We should note the last people who used to burst into religious buldings to attack or disrespect the people there were the Nazi Brownshirts, who behaved this way towards Jews and Synagogues in 1930s Germany.

With as much respect as I can muster, I have to disagree with you on this "We is innocent, u is a nazi" stance you've taken. Catholics are the last people on earth to be touting off about Nazism because let's face it: you're still responsible for modern genocides. Just ask the Canadiennes for the most recently known one. And your blatant ignorance as to why women would have qualms with the Catholic leadership is laughable.

Catholic Genocides and Atrocities in the 20th century

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50,000 deaths of aboriginal child children in the Jesuit-initiated Indian residential school system, that operated until 1996.
700,000 orthodox Serbians in Croatia, Yugoslavia, during the years 1940-1945 were tortured, burned, buried alive, or shot after digging their own graves in a convert or die inquisition.
10,000 Irish women abused in Irish Laundaries up until 1996.
Untold millions of children abused by the church and covered up, worldwide.

Ireland Apologizes to Abused Women of Catholic 'Magdalene' Laundries
Ireland Apologizes to Abused Women of Catholic 'Magdalene' Laundries
A government-commissioned report published two weeks ago found that more than 10,000 women were consigned to the laundries after being branded "fallen" women, a euphemism for prostitutes, even though virtually none of them were — and instead were products of poverty, homelessness, and dysfunctional families.


Over the past decade Ireland has published five investigations into the church's serial cover-up of crimes by pedophile priests in the Dublin Archdiocese and two rural Catholic dioceses; the sexual, physical, and psychological abuse of tens of thousands of children consigned to state-funded industrial schools since the 1930s; and now, as a final piece of that puzzle, the Magdalene laundries.

In response to the furore aroused by the media reports, the Irish government commissioned a study which took nine years to complete. On May 20, 2009, the commission released its 2600-page report, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. The commission found that Catholic priests and nuns had terrorised thousands of boys and girls for decades and that government inspectors had failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation. The report characterised rape and molestation as "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages. In February 2002, 18 religious institutes agreed to provide more than €128 million in compensation to the victims of child abuse. Most of the money was raised from church property transfers to the State.

The President of the international Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State wrote the Italian President this letter, urging him not to provide Pope Ratzinger amnesty.

14 February, 2013
Al Presdente della Repubblica Italiana Giorgio Napolitano
Presidenza della Repubblica
c/o Palazzo del Quirinale
00187 Roma
Italia

Dear President Napolitano,

On behalf of our Tribunal and people of conscience everywhere, and of the millions of victims of church abuse, I am making an appeal to you regarding your upcoming meeting with Joseph Ratzinger, who will retire soon as Pope Benedict, the Pontiff of the Church of Rome.

Our understanding is that, in the wake of pressure to have him resign his office because of his proven complicity in concealing child trafficking in his church and other crimes against humanity, Joseph Ratzinger is seeking the assistance of the Italian government in securing protection and immunity from legal prosecution.

I need not remind you, Mr. President, that under international law and treaties that have been ratified by Italy, you and your government are forbidden from granting such protection to those like Jospeh Ratzinger who have aided and abetted criminal actions, such as ordering Bishops and Cardinals in America and elsewhere to protect known child rapists among their clergy.

Your obligation to the Vatican through the Lateran Treaties does not negate or nullify the requirements of these higher moral and international laws; nor does it require that you give any protection or immunity to a single individual like Joseph Ratzinger, especially after he has left his papal office.

The need for you to abide by international law and not be seen to collude with Joseph Ratzinger is even more true when one considers the enormity of the crimes of which the Vatican and its highest officials are clearly guilty, according to considerable evidence gathered and documented by our Tribunal and other groups, and acknowledged by many governments.

In Canada alone, the Roman Catholic Church and its Vatican agents have been found guilty of responsibility for genocide and the deaths of at least 50,000 aboriginal child children in the Jesuit-initiated Indian residential school system, that operated until 1996.

In Ireland, more than 10,000 women suffered and were exploited in the Catholic-run Magdalene Laundries, where many of them died. Similar church-run institutions all over the world have caused enormous mortality, disease and ruination for millions of children. And yet the church has never been held accountable or prosecuted for these deaths and the theft of enormous wealth from entire nations.

With the recent initiative of at least one European government and a host of lawyers to bring Joseph Ratzinger and other church officials to trial for these crimes, we feel it is incumbent on you neither to assist nor to be seen to assist or condone the attempt by him to evade, obstruct or delay justice, lest you open yourself to a charge of being an accessory to a crime.

On behalf of our Tribunal and of many people who cannot speak, I call on you to stand on the law of nations and humanity, and offer no support or protection to Joseph Ratzinger or his accessories in their efforts to evade responsibility for their proven crimes.

I look forward to your reply, and to discussing this with you more when I visit your country in May with a human rights delegation to investigate this matter more closely.

Sincerely,

Kevin D. Annett, M.A., M.Div.

Secretary, The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State
Central Office, Brussels

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Nazism and your Religion

---

Who the Jews claim helped Nazis evade justice after the war:
How they succeeded is made overwhelmingly clear in “Nazis on the Run,” scholar Gerald Steinacher’s enormously researched account of escape though Italy — enabled not by some alleged underground network of former SS officers, but by the International Committee of the Red Cross, Roman Catholic officials, and the U.S. government.

From the mouth of the Beast:

During negotiations relating to the Concordat with the Catholic Church and the Nazis state in 1933, Hitler expressed his view on the relationship between race and religion to Bishop Wilhelm Berning:
Nazi Germany & the Jews: The Years of Persecution 1933-39, Saul Friedlander, p.47, Weidenfield & Nicolson, 1997, ISBN 978-0-297-81882-3

"I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognised the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognised. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognise the representatives of this race as pestilant for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

Hitler viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus by the Apostle Paul. In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross." Hitler, Adolf (1998). Mein Kampf. Trans. Ralph Manheim. New York: Houghton Mifflin, p. 307

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Hitler, Adolf (1999) Mein Kampf. Trans. Ralph Manheim. New York: Mariner Books, p. 65.

Nazi General Gerhard Engel reported in his diary that in 1941 Hitler stated, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

"The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today." Baynes, Norman H. ed. (1969). The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. New York: Howard Fertig. p. 385.

Consensus among historians who treat the matter of Christianity in prewar Nazi Germany is that the Nazi-backed "positivist" or "German Christian" church was endeavoring to make the evangelical churches of Germany an instrument of Nazi policy. "Confessing Church" in Dictionary of the Christian Church, F. L. Cross and E. A. Livingston, eds.; William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960), pp. 235 f.

During negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of April 26, 1933 Hitler argued that
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith." Ernst Helmreich, The German Churches Under Hitler. Detroit: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979, p. 241.

Hitler stated in a speech to the people of Stuttgart on February 15, 1933:
"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."
Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 240.

In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.'
Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 378.

Historians point out that any support the Pope Pius XII did give the Jews came after 1942, once U.S. officials told him that the allies wanted total victory, and it became likely that they would get it. Furthering the notion that any intervention by Pius XII was based on practical advantage rather than moral inclination is the fact that in late 1942, Pius XII began to advise the German and Hungarian bishops that it would be to their ultimate political advantage to go on record as speaking out against the massacre of the Jews.

---

And for the record I didn't type in google, "hate on Catholics.com"
All of these references were pulled straight from wikipedia itself.

[Mystical]

That's what I thought.

[Nobody]

---

"Even in our own lifetimes we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live.
"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny." Pope Benedict

God knows atheists across the globe will miss Joe.

[Gabriel Syme]

With as much respect as I can muster

As much as that?

I am honoured

I have to disagree with you on this "We is innocent, u is a nazi" stance you've taken.

Who is the "u" you refer to?

Are you claiming to be a member of FEMEN?

I only described my thoughts on the original posters question, I didn't align myself against you or any other poster.

Catholics are the last people on earth to be touting off about Nazism

I was not "touting off about Nazism".

I was putting the behaviour of the women in context, by giving another example of where hateful people thought it acceptable to try to offend/hurt others who are different, and interfere with their fundamental rights.

All of these references were pulled straight from wikipedia itself.

Wikipedia isn't such a great reference, I try to avoid using it, if I can - as anyone can edit it, and so on many topics, (especially divisive ones), it can become a worthless source.

I only use it if it gives "proper" references to support its article.

You don't actually link any to any of the info, further undermining your arguments.

To briefly discuss the accuracy of some of your claims:

Magadlen Laundries

The McAleese report has recently given its findings on the Magdalen laundries. It found the reality is very different to popular perception, thanks to the film of the same name and, er, Wikipedia etc!

- not a single case of sexual abuse (the film suggested this was endemic)

- vast majority of people not subject to corporal punishment (lets not forget that until only a few decades ago, corporal punishment was a normal part of society, including to control school-children).

- many women actually spoke positively of the nuns

- the Irish Government themselves send 25% of the women there, why do they escape criticism?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brenda...-straight/

The film Magdalen Laundries is actually a piece of malicious fiction.

700,000 Serbs killed 1940-45

Are you aware this was during world war 2?

The idea in a war is to kill many of the other side.

WW2 saw a lot of vicious fighting, murder and genocide - including in the Balkans, where Catholic Croatia had aligned with Nazi Germany, and Orthodox Serbia with Communist Russia.

(these were contemporary revivals of historical alliances in the specific area, more than they were the sharing of any Nazi or Communist ideology).

I am not sure how you can attribute killings or murders carried out by Croat troops, during a war, to the Catholic Church, simply because the Croats are nominally Catholic.

I think that's a pretty laughable argument, to be honest.

Individuals are responsible for their own actions and decisions. Its called liberty.

If I crash my car, is that the Catholic Church's fault too?

The allies ("the good guys") dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians during the war.

(1) How many people do you think that killed?
(2) Should the Church of England or other protestant denomination be blamed for that?

international Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State



This is a loony-organisation run by a crackpot protestant preacher.

Our understanding is that, in the wake of pressure to have him resign his office because of his proven complicity in concealing child trafficking in his church and other crimes against humanity, Joseph Ratzinger is seeking the assistance of the Italian government in securing protection and immunity from legal prosecution.

- what he says is based on "his understanding" (the qualifier shows he is not stating facts)

- the former Pope abdicated due to his age/frailty/ill-health, not "proven complicity" in crime.

For one thing, as a Pope he was a head of state, and so immune from prosecution. So he gave up his immunity, because he was shown to be guilty? DOH!

(Hey cleetus, dontcha think he would to keep his immunity in that scenario?)



He left the Vatican state the other evening and has since been staying at a location outside of Rome. He is no longer a head of state.

Yet - where are the arrest warrants? The police?

They are nowhere, because he is not guilty of any crime and no-one is seeking his arrest.

You need to be really careful about what you believe. The Catholic Church isn't perfect, but a lot of people tell a lot of vicious lies about it, mainly because they don't like what the Church has to say.

It is quite chilling to me, how easily many people are taken in by this -when evidence is clearly available to the contrary - especially young people.

Still it is an excellent example of propaganda techniques and the power of the media, not to say a general lack of critical thinking in society.

I have to pop out just now, but will return to the thread soon if you want to chat!

Bye for now!
GS

[Autumnlicious]

Whenever I see Catholic apologist crap, I like to mull on the Vatican helping Nazis escape judgement.

Where's your moral superiority now?

[Mystical]

Who is the "u" you refer to?

I am an ardent protester of all cults.

Are you claiming to be a member of FEMEN?

Nope.

I only described my thoughts on the original posters question, I didn't align myself against you or any other poster.

You put out a generally biased commentary, thus I replied. Duh.

I was not "touting off about Nazism".

Fair enough. You were just making non-sequiter comparison between a violent genocidal campaign, and peaceful protest.
:rolls eyes:

I was putting the behaviour of the women in context, by giving another example of where hateful people thought it acceptable to try to offend/hurt others who are different, and interfere with their fundamental rights.

Again, with as much respect as I can muster: bull fucking shit. Your definition of context is skewed if you're serious here. Which I think you are.

Wikipedia isn't such a great reference, I try to avoid using it, if I can - as anyone can edit it, and so on many topics, (especially divisive ones), it can become a worthless source.
I only use it if it gives "proper" references to support its article.
You don't actually link any to any of the info, further undermining your arguments.

If you take a look, I did give substantiated sources for the quotes. As for the rest: well, it's this strange magical thing called the In-ter-net.
Write that down.

To briefly discuss the accuracy of some of your claims:

Magadlen Laundries

The McAleese report has recently given its findings on the Magdalen laundries. It found the reality is very different to popular perception, thanks to the film of the same name and, er, Wikipedia etc!

- not a single case of sexual abuse (the film suggested this was endemic)

- vast majority of people not subject to corporal punishment (lets not forget that until only a few decades ago, corporal punishment was a normal part of society, including to control school-children).

- many women actually spoke positively of the nuns

- the Irish Government themselves send 25% of the women there, why do they escape criticism?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brenda...-straight/

The film Magdalen Laundries is actually a piece of malicious fiction.

Uhhhhhh... What the fuck dude? Lacking of critical thinking? Really? Please tell me you're referring to yourself--or that would just be a silly baseless petty and misinformed excuse for an assertion. I'm not talking about a film here, I'm talking about real live government inquiries and court commissions. How is it hard to see that women (or anyone for that matter) would have an issue with children being raped?

Here's an actual copy of the report: Ryan [Laffoy] Commission Report

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Chapter Overview:

Witnesses reported being physically, sexually and emotionally abused, and neglected by religious and lay adults who had responsibility for their care, and by others in the absence of adequate care and supervision. Many of the 216 named settings were the subject of repeated reports of abuse. In excess of 800 individuals were identified as physically and/or sexually abusing the witnesses as children in those settings. Neglect and emotional abuse were often described as endemic within institutions where there was a systemic failure to provide for children’s safety and welfare.

The Conclusions on sexual abuse which are outlined at Paragraph 7.549 were that sexual abuse of boys in Artane by Brothers was a chronic problem. Complaints were not handled properly and the steps taken by the Congregation to avoid scandal and publicity protected perpetrators of abuse. The safety of children was not a priority at any time during the relevant period.

Chapter 14 looks at the career of a serial sexual and physical abuser, given the name of Mr John Brander, who taught children in the primary and secondary school sector in Ireland for 40 years. He was eventually convicted of sexual abuse in the 1980s.
He began his career as a Christian Brother and after three separate incidents of sexual abuse of boys, he was granted dispensation from his vows. This chapter goes on to describe this man’s progress through six different schools where he physically terrorised and sexually abused children in his classroom.

Sexual abuse was a chronic problem. For two thirds of the relevant period there was at least one sexual abuser in the school, for almost one third of the period there were two abusers in the school and at times there were three abusers working in Letterfrack at the same time. Two abusers were present for periods of 14 years each and the Congregation could offer no explanation as to how these Brothers could have remained in the School for so long undetected and unreported. Conclusions on Sexual Abuse in Letterfrack are outlined at Paragraph 8.461 of the Report.

Sexual abuse was reported by approximately half of all the Confidential Committee witnesses. Acute and chronic contact and non-contact sexual abuse was reported, including vaginal and anal rape, molestation and voyeurism in both isolated assaults and on a regular basis over long periods of time. The secret nature of sexual abuse was repeatedly emphasised as facilitating its occurrence. Witnesses reported being sexually abused by religious and lay staff in the schools and institutions and by co-residents and others, including professionals, both within and external to the institutions. They also reported being sexually abused by members of the general public, including volunteer workers, visitors, work placement employers, foster parents, and others who had unsupervised contact with residents in the course of everyday activities. Witnesses reported being sexually abused when they were taken away for excursions, holidays or to work for others. Some witnesses who disclosed sexual abuse were subjected to severe reproach by those who had responsibility for their care and protection. Female witnesses in particular described, at times, being told they were responsible for the sexual abuse they experienced, by both their abuser and those to whom they disclosed abuse.

In general, girls’ schools were not as physically harsh as boys’ schools and there was no persistent problem of sexual abuse in girls’ schools although there was at best naiveté and at worst indifference in the way girls were sent out to foster families. A number of girls did experience sexual abuse at the hands of ‘godfathers’ which they were either unable to report or were disbelieved when they did report it.
There was a high level of emotional abuse in girls’ schools, which was a consistent feature of these institutions.

In particular, the Salthill report deals with a relatively recent allegation of sexual abuse against a Brother who had been transferred from Salthill ‘following a grave indiscretion with one of the boys’ in the early 1960s (Paragraph 12.63). The treatment of a boy who alleged sexual abuse against this Brother some twenty years later by Congregational Authorities was shameful and disturbing.

The extent of sexual abuse in this institution was as serious and disturbing as in Upton. Two religious members of the Rosminian Order and one layman were convicted of sexual abuse of boys in Ferryhouse. Another religious who served in Ferryhouse was convicted of a crime committed elsewhere on a boy who had previously been a resident of Ferryhouse and who was then living in another Rosminian institution. These three religious offenders served in senior positions in Ferryhouse and the layman was a volunteer there for different periods of years between 1968 and 1988.

During almost all of the period covered by the inquiry, there was at least one sexual abuser present in Ferryhouse.


The report into Greenmount contains a detailed analysis of an investigation into allegations of sexual abuse against two Brothers who were on the staff at the time. This matter was dealt with inadequately at the time and one of the Brothers went on to abuse in other schools he was assigned to.

Chapter 13 deals with the final Christian Brothers’ School investigated by the Committee, St Joseph’s School for the Deaf, in Cabra. It was the subject of Eastern Health Board Investigations in the 1980s which revealed disturbing levels of sexual abuse and peer sexual activity amongst boys who were resident there. These documents reveal a persistent failure on the part of school Authorities to protect children from bullying and abuse.

In addition, the documents revealed that physical punishment of these children continued into the mid-1990s and that staff were protected by management when physical abuse was discovered.

Volume II Chapter I looks at the founding and organisation of the Rosminian Order and its involvement in residential care in Ireland. The Rosminians adopted a different approach to the Commission than other Congregations. They sought to understand abuse, in contrast to other Congregations who sought to explain it. They accepted that abuse had occurred in their Institutions, that the Institutions in themselves were abusive and that the Order itself must bear responsibility for what occurred.


The issue of sexual abuse in this institution emerged most strikingly through material that came to the Investigation Committee’s attention following a search by the Order of material in their archive in Rome, which disclosed a considerable number of documents, 68 in all, dating from 1936 to 1968. They dealt with, among other things, 7 sexual abusers who worked in Upton. These documents provided a valuable contemporary account of how sexual abuse was dealt with.

Chapter 5 deals with Lota which was a residential school for boys with special needs run by the Brothers of Charity in Glanmire, Co Cork.

The significant element in the account of Lota was the deeply disturbing accounts of sexual abuse of vulnerable children by religious staff. In addition, the indifference of the Congregational Authorities in addressing the issue facilitated the abuse in Lota for many years. In one case, a Brother who was known by the Congregation to have abused in England and was known to the police there, was brought back to Ireland and assigned a teaching position in Lota, where he worked for over 30 years. This Brother admitted to multiple sexual assaults of boys in the school. The circumstances of his return to Ireland and the handling of allegations against him whilst in Lota are a serious indictment of the Brothers of Charity. The Brothers have admitted that abuse took place but, as in the case of other Orders, they have not accepted Congregational responsibility for it.

Unlike the Christian Brothers and to a lesser extent the Rosminians, the Sisters of Mercy retained almost no records of complaints or allegations against the School, or even any reports of internal inspections or reviews. The Goldenbridge report relies heavily on the oral testimony of witnesses both complainants and ex-staff members.

A high level of physical abuse was perpetrated by Religious and lay staff in Goldenbridge. The method of inflicting punishments and the implements used were cruel and excessive and physical punishment was an immediate response to even minor infractions. Children were in constant fear of beatings and in many cases were beaten for no apparent reason. A feature of this school was a rosary bead industry that was operated from the school. This industry was conducted in a way that imposed impossible standards on children and caused great suffering to many of them. It was a school that was characterised by a regime of extreme drudgery, both in terms of the rosary bead making and the daily workload of the children.

Chapter 8 considers Cappoquin Industrial School, County Waterford which was owned and managed by the Sisters of Mercy. It was certified for 75 boys up to the age of ten. From 1970, it was allowed take girls as well as boys. This institution was identified by the Department of Education Inspector as being particularly neglectful of the children in its care in the 1940s. Children were described as malnourished and underweight. This chapter also deals with Passage West Industrial School Co Cork, in the context of an allegation of sexual abuse against a lay care worker who worked in both Institutions and who was subsequently convicted of abuse of children in Cappoquin.

Chapter 13 deals with St Patrick’s Industrial School which was founded in 1879 and accommodated 186 boys up to the age of 10. A significant feature of this school was the very young ages of the children and the large group of them all being cared for by a small number of nuns. Because they were so young when they were there, witnesses tended to remember specific episodes rather than have overall memories of St Patrick’s. Some of these incidents pointed to a regime that was harsh and unpredictable with corporal punishment the usual response to misbehaviour. Three male complainants described incidents of sexual abuse and the significant factor in each account was the child’s inability to confide to the Sister who was caring for him. Men who were employed in the school appeared to have ready access to these small boys and there was no awareness of the risks posed by this.

In 1954, a handyman who had been employed in the school for the previous 30 years was discovered to have been grossly sexually abusing girls from as young as eight years old. An investigation which was conducted by the Department of Education, confirmed the abuse but the children concerned were offered no comfort and the perpetrator, although dismissed from the school, was not reported to the Gardai.

The second period in which sexual abuse arose in St Joseph’s was during the 1970s after the school admitted boys, when two care workers who were sexually abusing boys were dismissed. Both men went on to abuse again after leaving St Joseph’s and the failure of the Congregation to deal decisively with these men was a factor in this.

---

The high court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. Police were called to the news conference amid angry scenes as victims were prevented from attending.

The findings prompted the new Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to say that it took "courage" for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions. In an interview to be broadcast tonight on ITV News at Ten, he said: "I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they'd rather not look at. That takes courage, and also we shouldn't forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did."

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

The report concluded that when confronted with evidence of sex abuse, religious authorities responded by transferring offenders to another location, where in many instances they were free to abuse again.

Are you aware this was during world war 2?

Yep.
Note the title: 20th century atrocities please and thank you.

WW2 saw a lot of vicious fighting, murder and genocide - including in the Balkans, where Catholic Croatia had aligned with Nazi Germany, and Orthodox Serbia with Communist Russia.
I am not sure how you can attribute killings or murders carried out by Croat troops, during a war, to the Catholic Church, simply because the Croats are nominally Catholic.

Well I can and I do.

I think that's a pretty laughable argument, to be honest.

I'm not laughing.

The allies ("the good guys") dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians during the war.

(1) How many people do you think that killed?
(2) Should the Church of England or other protestant denomination be blamed for that?

1) a lot
2) Probably

For one thing, as a Pope he was a head of state, and so immune from prosecution. So he gave up his immunity, because he was shown to be guilty? DOH! (Hey cleetus, dontcha think he would to keep his immunity in that scenario?)

Mister Ratzinger broke a 600yr tradition and surprised even his own clergy with the move.

Cardinal George Pell told The Associated Press it "kind of shook us and startled us because we are not used to it."

Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York said Thursday that
"A pope dying is natural — a pope stepping aside is something new to us. So it was startling," he added.

So long as he's in the Vatican City he's immune, duh.

March 2
VATICAN CITY — A relaxed and rested Pope Emeritus Benedict read messages from well-wishers and strolled in his retirement palace gardens Friday as cardinals due to elect his successor planned pre-vote meetings for next week.
http://news.msn.com/world/ahh-pope-emeri...nsnewsrel1

CBS NEWS/ March 1, 2013, 10:40 AM
Cardinal Dolan: U.S. Church on "right track" in sex abuse scandal
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-5757...e-scandal/

Pope Benedict XVI’s leaked documents show fractured Vatican full of rivalries Benedict had installed Viganò to enact a series of reforms within the Vatican. But some of Rome’s highest-ranking cardinals undercut the efforts and hastened Viganò’s exile to the United States.

Viganò’s plight and other unflattering machinations would soon become public in an unprecedented leak of the pontiff’s personal correspondence. Much of the media — and the Vatican — focused on the source of the shocking security breach. Largely lost were the revelations contained in the letters themselves — tales of rivalry and betrayal, and allegations of corruption and systemic dysfunction that infused the inner workings of the Holy See and the eight-year papacy of Benedict XVI.

VatiLeaks, as the scandal came to be known, dragged the fusty institution into the wild WikiLeaks era. It exposed the church bureaucracy’s entrenched opposition to Benedict’s fledgling effort to carve out a legacy as a reformer against the backdrop of a global child sex abuse scandal and the continued dwindling of his flock.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-...tican-city

Really, the entire Catholic Order needs to be charged in their crimes. The reason why Pope Ratzinger left is mute behind the growing evidence for your church's staggering corruption, and the fact that these wrongs occurred during his 'reign'. If even the man "ordained by God himself" can't control his congregation then what the fuck are you still doing giving them money and support for?

It is quite chilling to me, how easily many people are taken in by this -when evidence is clearly available to the contrary - especially young people. Still it is an excellent example of propaganda techniques and the power of the media, not to say a general lack of critical thinking in society.

I'm going to quote the media here for fun, because to be frank: your general lack of critical thinking is astounding me and I have no response for this one. Oh and a bonus commentary.


In the past several days, I have experienced many examples of being humiliated. In recent days, I have been confronted in various places by very unhappy people. I could understand the depth of their anger and outrage — at me, at the Church, at about injustices that swirl around us.
Thanks to God’s special grace, I simply stood there, asking God to bless and forgive them.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/25/world/euro...index.html

Vatican officials were already trying Monday to swat down unsavory claims by Italian publications of a brewing episode involving gay priests, male prostitutes and blackmail when news broke that Benedict had moved up the resignation of a Scottish archbishop linked over the weekend by a British newspaper to inappropriate relationships with priests.

[Gabriel Syme]

Whenever I see Catholic apologist crap, I like to mull on the Vatican helping Nazis escape judgement.

Where's your moral superiority now?

Well, before I demonstrate my moral superiority, where is your evidence? (Credible sources only please).

Who exactly helped the Nazis? Which Nazis exactly? How did they help them? What is the proof of this?

Anyone can belch hollow accusations, but where is the substance to what you say?

[Esquilax]

Well, before I demonstrate my moral superiority, where is your evidence? (Credible sources only please).

Who exactly helped the Nazis? Which Nazis exactly? How did they help them? What is the proof of this?

Anyone can belch hollow accusations, but where is the substance to what you say?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may...-documents

How long did you think you were going to be able to delay before someone actually fronted up and provided evidence? Where did you think you were going with this?

[Gabriel Syme]

I am an ardent protester of all cults.

Hiya again. Why are you are ardent protester "of all cults"?

Dontcha have anything better to do? Why waste your time on something you dislike or have no time for? Isn't life too short?

You put out a generally biased commentary, thus I replied. Duh.

You don't say why it is biased? Mmmm? Purely because it disagrees with you? lol

Fair enough. You were just making non-sequiter comparison between a violent genocidal campaign, and peaceful protest.

I made a comparison between two types of people who operate the same kind of tactics. People who seek to interfere with others right to practice their religion, (a fundamental human right).

People who seek to cause hurt and distress by causing offence is places held sacred by others. People who seek to suppress others freedom of speech and expression, by targetting them in this manner, because they are different.

Yes, the comparison is very much valid.

FEMENs behaviour is both extremist and fascist.

If they wanted to make a peaceful protest, they could have done so entirely legitimately outside the cathedral. I would support their right to do so. As it is however, their mode of conduct is disgraceful and has no place in a civlised society.

And no wonder. The leaders of FEMEN left Ukraine to escape prosecution for destroying a memorial, (a cross), to all Ukrainian victims (from any background) of totalitarian murder under Stalin's Soviet regime.

However, I doubt they even stopped for a second to think what the memorial represented ,( the memory of loved ones), or to whom (bereaved families), given their crude, idiotic, thoughtless, attention seeking behaviour. They did it to support Pussy Riot against the Russian Orthodox Church, but the memorial to murder victims they destroyed was created by the Catholic Church. So they didn't even manage to get their victims right. Dumb fucks.

Some nice heroes you got there.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/...14756.html

Additionally, they are not genuine feminists. They are puppets, circus clowns, cultural terrorists. They have no genuine principles and their behaviour is purely motivated by the money they receive from their masters, to carry out orders, such as the stunt discussed here.

KIEV, September 21 (Itar-Tass) —— Activists from Ukraine’s FEMEN movement get naked for a salary of at least 1,000 U.S. dollars, Kiev’s 1 Plus 1 television channel said on Friday, referring to a woman journalist from the Groshi (Money) television program who infiltrated into that scandalous female movement.

http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c32/526669.html

I have a lot of time and admiration for real feminists, like Emmeline Pankhurst, but literally zero for these clowns, whose antics - more than anything else - show feminism is now redundant.

They are not motivated by principle, they are motivated by someone else's money.

Someone else who does not have the courage of, or confidence in, their own stances, so they pay puppets to perform instead.

Tell me, how does it feel, to learn the "feminist" movement is about the colour of money , not women's rights? Don't seem so principled and bold all of a sudden, eh?

Why? Because of course it is redundant. Most "feminists" now have never known anything other than full social, financial, voting etc equality - including you, I would bet!

Modern feminism is little more than women doing what they love best - talking about themselves

What do these "feminists" have in common with gay marriage advocates anyway, other than the fact that they all seem to hate it that they are not heterosexual men?

Your definition of context is skewed if you're serious here. Which I think you are.

You don't say why it is skewed?

The comparison I made is correct. With this behaviour , FEMEN are clearly saying to Catholics:

- we hate you

- we have no respect for you

- we will go far beyond our right to voice an opinion and instead seek to hurt you, to denigrate that which is important to you and to interfere with your fundamental rights

- we will continue to treat you in this way until you give up your freedom of speech and disappear, so we can dominate

They are not debating, they are not protesting, they are persecuting.
And the whole thing is calculated to impress simple / impressionable people, hence the cheap nudity and stunts angle.

The bullet points above are pretty much the same outlook of the Nazis louts who mistreated synagogues and jewish people at prayer in the 1930s.

To this day, in parts of Germany, synagogues are guarded by uniformed policemen or women, (I have seen this personally, in Berlin), to prevent them being invaded or abused.

How long will it before Catholic Churches have to be guarded by the Police, due to the actions of FEMEN?

Is that your "feminist" vision for society? Would it not be better if we could live in peace together and not require the presence of Police Officers to be able to peacefully enact our fundamental rights?

As for the rest: well, it's this strange magical thing called the In-ter-net.
Write that down.

Much like parts of the bible, parts of the internet are nonsense.

Write that down!

Uhhhhhh... What the fuck dude? Lacking of critical thinking? Really? Please tell me you're referring to yourself--or that would just be a silly baseless petty and misinformed excuse for an assertion. I'm not talking about a film here, I'm talking about real live government inquiries and court commissions. How is it hard to see that women (or anyone for that matter) would have an issue with children being raped?

No I am refering to you regards the critical thinking jibe lol . As shown here:

- you mentioned the magdalen laundries originally
-I responded quoting a recent report which says they are nothing like the popular perception, such as you mentioned
- you respond to this by switching to discuss abuse in schools

I am more than happy to discuss, but let's keep on the same topic for more than 1 second at a time.

I am not sure how you can attribute killings or murders carried out by Croat troops, during a war, to the Catholic Church, simply because the Croats are nominally Catholic.

Well I can and I do.

That is simple, unthinking prejudice. You dislike Catholicism because you want to.

Your attitude is completely irrational.

It is exact the same as a racist forming a view of all black people based on some negative encounter with one black person.

You could only blame the Catholic Church as an institution for these actions, if it said "Kill loads of Orthodox Serbs" i n the Catholic Catechism.

Guess what....it doesnt.

I think that's a pretty laughable argument, to be honest.

I'm not laughing.

I am!

The allies ("the good guys") dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians during the war.

(1) How many people do you think that killed?
(2) Should the Church of England or other protestant denomination be blamed for that?

1) a lot
2) Probably

1) correct
2) absurd - the secular US Government is responsible for those actions.

So long as he's in the Vatican City he's immune, duh.

As I said in my previous post to you - he left the Vatican when he abdicated, and ever since has been in Castel Gandolfo, a town 15 miles outside rome. He will stay at the papal residence there until the conclave is finished and a new Pope is elected. Then he will go back to stay in the Vatican for a period.

At a little past 5:00 PM, Vatican time, on 28 February 2013, less than three hours before his resignation was to become effective, Benedict left the Vatican by Italian military helicopter, headed for Castel Gandolofo, where he arrived around 15 minutes later at 5:24 PM.[4] He will stay at Castel Gandolfo during the conclave, after which he will permanently retire and live in relative seclusion at Mater Ecclesiae, a former monastery inside Vatican City

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_Gandolfo
(proper referencess within link).

Castel Gandolfo is in italy, not the Vatican state.

He could have been arrested at any point since he retired, no matter where is he........but nothing. Of course.

Anyway, even if he was still in the Vatican, an international arrest warrant would still have to be honoured if presented.

The Italian Police could just walk in and take him, they already Police St Peters square by arrangement. Italy previously invaded the Papal States using military force, they wouldn't blanche at a simple arrest of someone.

But there is no, and will not be, any arrest warrant - because the whole thing is fiction. You are completely brainwashed by the media and activists in this regard. I confess, I am somewhat impressed - in a morbid sense - by the fruits of their labours.

[ Really, the entire Catholic Order needs to be charged in their crimes. The reason why Pope Ratzinger left is mute behind the growing evidence for your church's staggering corruption, and the fact that these wrongs occurred during his 'reign'. If even the man "ordained by God himself" can't control his congregation what the fuck are you still doing giving them money and support for?[/b]

Anyone who breaks the law should be brought to account, regardless of who or what they are.

Actually, most of these cases in the media date from decades ago, not during Ratzingers Pontificate or even his time at the CDF.

The Popes job is to articulate Christian doctrine, not to "control his followers". Human beings are supposed to be able to control themselves, having the gift of reason. There over 400,00 Catholic priests in the world, (with over 100,000 currently in training), and over 5,000 Bishops. There are about 1.3 billion people who are nominally Catholic. The Pope cannot micromanage each and every one of these people.

Prior to Ratzingers reform of how the Church deals with abuse, it was local Bishops who dealt with any such accusations. It went no higher than them, which is exactly how some of them managed to hush things up. After reform, matter are now dealt with centrally, by the CDF, to ensure proper and consistent action (via removing influence of friendships, local biases etc).

You seem to think the Catholic Church has a particular or exclusive problem with abuse. This is just how the media has conditioned you, by concentrating exclusively on Catholic examples. It is depressing how people are taken in by this.

I am not saying the Catholic Church should escape punishment or criticism, for its failings - of course not - but I do resent the implication of a specific or exclusive problem. This is not the case, but that's what the media and others want you to think (because it suits their aims in current topics - e.g. gay marriage - to have the Catholic Church marginalised).

Do you know that, in the USA:

1. Protestant Churches face the majority of child abuse allegations .
Mark Clayton, "Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches", Christian Science Monitor, April 5, 2002, p.1.


2. Physical abuse and unwanted sexual attention toward minors is several orders of magnitude higher in US schools, than in US Catholic Churches. The problem far exceeds the scale in the Catholic Church.
Caroline Hendrie, "Sexual Abuse by Educators Scrutinized", in: Education Week, March 10, 2004

But thats not the impression you would get from the media , or certain websites, is it? From those sources, you would think that the Catholic Church had a monopoly on abuse.

I would strongly advise you read the following (referenced) article
http://www.catholiceducation.org/article...fm0131.htm

To put the scale of Catholic abuse in context against other organisations/religions.

Many people have a very biased impression, to the point of it being absurd, thanks to a wholly unquestioning attitude towards the media.

[ what the fuck are you still doing giving them money and support for?

The Catholic Church provides 26% of the total healthcare on earth (117,000) hospitals and health-centres. Millions of people depend on it for their only source of healthcare.

The Catholic Church educates millions of people, who would otherwise do without their right to knowledge. In some places it is the only organisation which will educate girls (other communities will not, due to cultural or religious reasons). It is the largest non-governmental educational body in the world.

The Catholic Church maintains a global network of aid and relief agencies, through which it distributes approx. $2 billion pa to help the poor and needy.

Additionally, the Catholic runs many small schemes and initiatives at regional and local level, which do much to help their local communities, and you or I will never know about.

That's why

I am proud to belong to have a group which has helping the needy and loving thy neighbour as its guiding principles.

That's certainly a whole lot use to humanity than the antics of the self-indulgent, principles-for-money, crude exhibitionists of FEMEN.

Yes, its not perfect - as these scandals show - but what human organisation is?

---

Well, before I demonstrate my moral superiority, where is your evidence? (Credible sources only please).

Who exactly helped the Nazis? Which Nazis exactly? How did they help them? What is the proof of this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may...-documents

How long did you think you were going to be able to delay before someone actually fronted up and provided evidence? Where did you think you were going with this?

Hi esquilax,

You do not provide any evidence in that link. It says:

The Red Cross and the Vatican both helped thousands of Nazi war criminals and collaborators to escape after the second world war, according to a book that pulls together evidence from unpublished documents.

and

The Red Cross has previously acknowledged that its efforts to help refugees were used by Nazis because administrators were overwhelmed, but the research suggests the numbers were much higher than thought

and

Steinacher believes the Vatican's help was based on a hoped-for revival of European Christianity and dread of the Soviet Union

Lets see now.

So after WW2, with millions of displaced people needing help, the Red Cross humanitarian organisation tries to help these people.

The Catholic Church, being a Christian organisation, naturally helps with this endeavour.

During the chaos at the end of the war, amid millions of refugees, some wanted men managed to abuse the Red Cross efforts, using false identities etc.

And you - in all seriousness - honestly regard this as a fair summation:

The Red Cross and the Vatican both helped thousands of Nazi war criminals and collaborators to escape after the second world war

?????

This is exactly what I talk about, regarding media propaganda and the power of suggestion. You need to be much more questioning of things.

The article is paper-thin on facts. By using suggestive and leading language, it encourages pre-prejudiced readers to make their own conclusions which are not supported by anything in the article itself.

The article provides no evidence whatsoever that the Catholic Church knowingly or otherwise helped wanted criminals to escape.

The only accusation against it is one mans apparent journalistic belief - again, the qualifier shows that what you are not reading is not established fact - based on a frankly ludicrous theory. Christian revival of Europe? Europe was strongly Christian already at that point in history.

I wonder how much of his journalistic belief is rooted in fact, (not a lot it seems), and how much it has to do with him wanting to write a book, to make some dough from gullible people who enjoy reading about how evil the Catholic Church is supposed to be?

The Guardian would print any old shite, no matter how transparent, just as long as it painted the Catholic Church is a bad light.