Christians

[Retorth]

Hello Lifebepraised!

I don't recall you properly introducing yourself in the "Introductions" thread. It would be good if you did.

Anyways, welcome to AF!

What religion has claimed that faith is not involved?

Everything to do with religion has to be dealt with by faith and nothing else. That is why it is so weak. As I said, religion is a comfort zone. Nothing more then a comfort zone. You feel life is meaningless unless you have an individual to worship and praise. I feel life is meaningful in itself. I need no supernatural force or supreme being to make it meaningful.

I refuse to name-call or insult you for how you live your life. It is your decision and I respect that.

The big question looms, and I answer it to the best of my ability - through faith I live it. I cannot require infallible proof for things - in order that those things can be used in my life. If I had that requirement then I would be forced to live with nothing.

You certainly have answered it as best as you can. How is it that you do not require infallible proof for things? If someone told you they could fly, you'd readily believe? That doesn't seem right.

[quote='ecolox']I'm not sure how this analogy applies to my usage of the best answer I can find to the big question. It seems that you are self-blind-folded in life through your denial in regards to this hugely significant question.

On the contrary, I feel very much enlightened and alive because I am embracing life and all it has to offer.

It has nothing to do with my "religious persona" and everything to do with your failure to address the big question.

How is it my failure when I already addressed it multiple times and you refuse to simply acknowledge it? I am not asking you to just drop everything and go "WOW You're right! I was wrong!" And I will never ask you to do such things. That would be disrespectful of me.

However, I ask you to merely keep an open-mind and accept that not everyone thinks the same as you and just because they don't, it does not mean they are wrong.

Yes, because you fail to answer it every time, and it is an essential question. Face it, you don't have a clue as to what your talking about...(i.e. prove that God doesn't exist). I don't pray to make my life more convenient, in fact...because I pray my life is less convenient. Because I care what's going on with myself and the world in relation to God. Being holy means working hardest for the best reasons - and that does change everything in one's life.

I do not have a clue as to what I am saying? On the contrary, I know exactly what I am saying. I know exactly what eggs I put my basket into.

I pray because my life is less convenient

This is the same as saying "I don't pray to make my life more convenient" is is not?

My success is positively/directly related to your righteousness, I guess.

How is your success rate in these forums in direct correlation to my righteousness? Please explain your statement.

[ecolox]

Religion is about figuring out why we exist, in large part... Science has nothing to say about it, and neither do you so far.

Religion is a comfort zone for individuals who are weak-minded and have nothing else to turn to.

They say "ignorance is bliss" - does that sound about right to you? I find it humorous that you try to insult the bold and brave who take on the challenge of "the big question". Do you expect that anyone will think it is you who is bold and brave, who settles for nothing with stupidity?

You are far from tackling the question. You are sugar-coating it with what you desire to be the truth.

And you are uninvolved, except in trying to stop me. (I thought your types were open to speculation, yet I've seen none.)

Likewise, there isn't any science that says god can exist. You only consider him to be existing based solely on faith which by my standards is weak to the say the least.

All science allows for the existence of God. His existence to me isn't based on faith alone - since that wouldn't make any sense. It's the universe that is indicative of God - to me.

Of course the choice ultimately is yours. The point of this debate is for you to show us, as all other theists have miserably failed to do, how a god can exist. Your sole objective it seems is to attack our views of life which is quite redundant imo.

How can you exist - that's what I'm asking you. But you miserably fail - and then say you're happy with ignorance. Sweet, just let the atheists do all the work for you. I'll have to remember that.

The by-products of bad religion far outweigh any possibly good that religion has accomplished, therefore making any good clearly redundant.

That doesn't make sense. In your example the good wouldn't be redundant, it wouldn't be worth it. You think that you can have good without evil in the absence of religion, but that's where you're _____.

Not only that, but science gives us these things without asking for complete loyalty and worship, doesn't threaten us with suffering if we don't believe, doesn't demand our respect, doesn't watch over us as an intergalactic dictator - It has every advantage and no disadvantage.

I wouldn't go so far as to say all that.

Explain please.
[/quote]

Eh, brief speculations: It's hard to blame science or religion - easier to blame scientists or religious leaders (e.g. guns don't kill people, people kill people). Science isn't very productive without the complete loyalty/worship of scientists and those who fund their work. Scientists really have to dedicate their lives in order to begin explaining things. Not to say that I agree with pollution, but scientists behind global warming threaten us and demand our respect. Science doesn't seem to have every advantage and no disadvantage. (e.g. sometimes its wrong and incomplete.)

[theVOID]

I'm glad you think so. Jesus said "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me".

I don't care what your delusional Jewish zombie friend said.

We don't know what happened before the big bang.
We don't know why we are here, ASSUMING THERE IS A 'WHY' AT ALL!
We don't know the exact origins of life on this planet.

I know, that's why I got you to admit that your existence is a big mystery.

1. You didn't get me to admin anything that i'm not already open about 2. Existence of the cosmos is a mystery, the existence of life not so much.

But that DOES NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT MEAN GUESSING THAT IT WAS A GOD, In place of real answers, IS ANYTHING MORE THAN COMPLETE BUFFOONERY!!!

What real answers have you supplied...none. You would rather sit in a pool of your own ignorance than try to explain why you exist.

Drop the loaded question, you automatically assume we exist for a reason when you phrase it "why do we exist" and before you can make this assumption you need to VERIFY that we do exist for a reason.

The two appropriate questions to ask are:
1. HOW do we exist?
2. Do we exist for a reason?

Both of which i have already provided my answer to.

1. Matter, Energy, Abiogenesis and Evolution
2. Not certain, i reject the assumption until it is verified by evidence.

You INSIST on a belief that is not only DEVOID COMPLETELY of ANY evidence but one that is also REJECTED COMPLETELY BUT THE SUMMATION OF ALL EVIDENCE FROM ALL FIELDS OF STUDY!

There isn't any science out there that says God can't exist. There is the pseudoscience, of course, that you subscribe to, I assume.

I don't subscribe to anything without it being verified as truth. We can't prove god can't exist but we can't prove Unicorns and Faries don't exist. We can't prove that the universe wasn't the product of two hippos having anal sex in another universe. God is in the same category.

Simple fact is; there is no evidence for the existence of god and therefore no reason to assume it is true.

You talk about how you 'reversed engineered' the universe, but what real study did you do? You only put God into a gap - and you think that is in some way an adequate position? LAUGHABLE!

In light of God, the universe makes sense, and I have a reason to live. He is the answer to the biggest, relevant question out there. You've provided nothing as an alternative answer. Should I listen to you?

It does not matter if it makes sense to you, doesn't matter if it makes you comfortable, doesn't matter what we as a species believe, what matters is the truth and the only way separate truth from untruth is the scientific method which allows us to accurately and repeatably verify truth statements ans separate them from fiction.

God is the easy answer, people cling to it when they are too weak minded for a challenging belief system that doesn't exits solely to make us feel better. Religion like putting a bandage on a tumor - it covers it up but doesn't solve anything.

You say few things will be answers by us - LAUGHABLE AGAIN! Science and those who support it are the ONLY people getting real answers to the big questions. Look at what science has given us! Then look at what we got from religion during the past 2000 years... FUCK ALL - And you claim religion is going to give us answers! My sides hurt!

You only look at the by-products of bad religion, no wonder you don't know what you're saying.

Religion has provided us with very little positive advantage and many many negative ones. Over the last 100 years science has given us more benefits than religion has in it's entire history - that tends to happen when you deal with truth rather than speculation!

I challenge you to name a single positive action provided by religion that could not be done by a secular person! Here's a hint; you can't!

But it is easy to name advantages provided by science that religion could never deliver.

Not only that, but science gives us these things without asking for complete loyalty and worship, doesn't threaten us with suffering if we don't believe, doesn't demand our respect, doesn't watch over us as an intergalactic dictator - It has every advantage and no disadvantage.

I wouldn't go so far as to say all that.

And you would be wrong again.

Well done Ecolox - You are the most stupid individual i have ever encountered on these boards, bar none.

Stupid is as stupid does.
[/quote]

Nonsensical reply, nothing less than expected from someone defending a falsity.

---

Religion is about figuring out why we exist, in large part... Science has nothing to say about it, and neither do you so far.

Religion is a comfort zone for individuals who are weak-minded and have nothing else to turn to.

They say "ignorance is bliss" - does that sound about right to you? I find it humorous that you try to insult the bold and brave who take on the challenge of "the big question". Do you expect that anyone will think it is you who is bold and brave, who settles for nothing with stupidity?

But you AREN'T answering anything!!! You aren't bold and you aren't brave - you aren't actively looking for truth, you aren't making a dent in the question! Religion DOES NOT have the tools to answer the questions!

What's worse is this; you already have your answer and you are working backwards from a conclusion! What a stupid methodology - but no more stupid than i would expect from a theist.

[Retorth]

They say "ignorance is bliss" - does that sound about right to you? I find it humorous that you try to insult the bold and brave who take on the challenge of "the big question". Do you expect that anyone will think it is you who is bold and brave, who settles for nothing with stupidity?

How have I insulted the bold and brave? If you are referring to yourself as bold and brave, I believe my comments were quite fair. I cannot same the same for yours however.

Because I disbelief in a supernatural supreme being, I'm stupid? Really? lol

And you are uninvolved, except in trying to stop me. (I thought your types were open to speculation, yet I've seen none.)

I am very much open to possibilities but you haven't shown me anything that is convincing. Furthermore, I stated my peace in my previous post that I am not trying to convert you or condemn you yet you said I am trying to stop you? Why are you so defensive? Shouldn't you be confident instead?

All science allows for the existence of God. His existence to me isn't based on faith alone - since that wouldn't make any sense. It's the universe that is indicative of God - to me.

So show me, show everyone, the science that allows for the existence of God instead of shoving the what life means to you statement down my throat every chance you get. I already said I am very much open to this.

[quote='ecolox']How can you exist - that's what I'm asking you. But you miserably fail - and then say you're happy with ignorance. Sweet, just let the atheists do all the work for you. I'll have to remember that.

Let the Atheists do all the work for me? "Atheists" are other fellow individuals like myself who disbelieve in the idea/concept of a supernatural supreme being. I never said "I'm happy with ignorance". If you think I implied that, you are sorely mistaken. I am most happy with knowledge. Sure-fire knowledge. Faith is not based on knowledge, and religion is on the same boat with faith.

That doesn't make sense. In your example the good wouldn't be redundant, it wouldn't be worth it. You think that you can have good without evil in the absence of religion, but that's where you're _____.

There will always be good and evil irregardless of religion. The desire to steal, to be greedy...etc.. are all explainable with science. Religion as I said is merely a comfort zone because you desire something to make your own life worth living.

[ecolox]

What religion has claimed that faith is not involved?

Everything to do with religion has to be dealt with by faith and nothing else. That is why it is so weak. As I said, religion is a comfort zone. Nothing more then a comfort zone. You feel life is meaningless unless you have an individual to worship and praise. I feel life is meaningful in itself. I need no supernatural force or supreme being to make it meaningful.

And ignorance is your comfort zone. My religion leads to much discomfort (e.g. standing up for God only to be attacked by anti-theists). Some people are killed for sharing the gospel.

I refuse to name-call or insult you for how you live your life. It is your decision and I respect that.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I hope I show the same respect. You've definitely been one of the most respectful atheists on this forum. But I can't stop thinking you're wrong.

You certainly have answered it as best as you can. How is it that you do not require infallible proof for things? If someone told you they could fly, you'd readily believe? That doesn't seem right.

I like to see things to believe often times, but certainly not always. There are many things I can't see and basically no things I can infallibly prove. The case of God is different than some guy claiming he can fly.

On the contrary, I feel very much enlightened and alive because I am embracing life and all it has to offer.

What does that mean - both the good and the evil?

How is it my failure when I already addressed it multiple times and you refuse to simply acknowledge it? I am not asking you to just drop everything and go "WOW You're right! I was wrong!" And I will never ask you to do such things. That would be disrespectful of me.

I don't know how an honest, mature person can live with your answers - they're too vain.

However, I ask you to merely keep an open-mind and accept that not everyone thinks the same as you and just because they don't, it does not mean they are wrong.

Oh, I know. I hope I wouldn't make that mistake - thinking someone was wrong just for disagreeing with me. I don't know how ignorance/apathy to this big question could ever be considered right though.

I do not have a clue as to what I am saying? On the contrary, I know exactly what I am saying. I know exactly what eggs I put my basket into.

Yes, you put your eggs in the trash compactor.

I pray because my life is less convenient

This is the same as saying "I don't pray to make my life more convenient" is is not?

That was supposed to read "...because I pray my life is less convenient". I don't know why you keep misquoting me.

My success is positively/directly related to your righteousness, I guess.

How is your success rate in these forums in direct correlation to my righteousness? Please explain your statement.

Of course people who reject God are going to find me to be a dismal failure. Righteousness is allegiance to God.

---

They say "ignorance is bliss" - does that sound about right to you? I find it humorous that you try to insult the bold and brave who take on the challenge of "the big question". Do you expect that anyone will think it is you who is bold and brave, who settles for nothing with stupidity?

How have I insulted the bold and brave? If you are referring to yourself as bold and brave, I believe my comments were quite fair. I cannot same the same for yours however.

Because I disbelief in a supernatural supreme being, I'm stupid? Really? lol

You do not even try to explain why you exist/why the universe exists. That's irresponsible, I'm afraid.

I am very much open to possibilities but you haven't shown me anything that is convincing. Furthermore, I stated my peace in my previous post that I am not trying to convert you or condemn you yet you said I am trying to stop you? Why are you so defensive? Shouldn't you be confident instead?

I alone am not responsible for showing you convincing things. You too have to take part in the speculation. This isn't a circus - you are not a spectator of this game I'm playing - you too are responsible for answering the mystery of life. And sure, I should be perfect but I'm not, whether I am wrong now or not.

So show me, show everyone, the science that allows for the existence of God instead of shoving the what life means to you statement down my throat every chance you get. I already said I am very much open to this.

Like I said, you have to discover this for yourself. The first step is getting off your butt and trying. I'll leave you with it now.

Let the Atheists do all the work for me? "Atheists" are other fellow individuals like myself who disbelieve in the idea/concept of a supernatural supreme being. I never said "I'm happy with ignorance". If you think I implied that, you are sorely mistaken. I am most happy with knowledge. Sure-fire knowledge. Faith is not based on knowledge, and religion is on the same boat with faith.

Faith is not based on absolute knowledge, but it is based on knowledge. You must be happy with ignorance to claim that God doesn't exist while providing no alternative explanation.

That doesn't make sense. In your example the good wouldn't be redundant, it wouldn't be worth it. You think that you can have good without evil in the absence of religion, but that's where you're _____.

There will always be good and evil irregardless of religion. The desire to steal, to be greedy...etc.. are all explainable with science. Religion as I said is merely a comfort zone because you desire something to make your own life worth living.

Alright, so now you aren't blaming religion for all the evils of the world? Do you still not realize that this existence is not explainable with science? If religion is my comfort zone, then ignorance is yours. You have to ignore a higher purpose, but I have to go to sleep. Good-night Retorth.

[Retorth]

And ignorance is your comfort zone. My religion leads to much discomfort (e.g. standing up for God only to be attacked by anti-theists). Some people are killed for sharing the gospel.

How am I ignorant if I am seeking evidence for god's existence?

Thanks, I appreciate it. I hope I show the same respect. You've definitely been one of the most respectful atheists on this forum. But I can't stop thinking you're wrong.

I appreciate that too. I do not expect you to think I am right. Clearly we share different opinions but that's the reason for this debate after all.

I like to see things to believe often times, but certainly not always. There are many things I can't see and basically no things I can infallibly prove. The case of God is different than some guy claiming he can fly.

How is it different?

[quote='ecolox']What does that mean - both the good and the evil?

As I said:

I feel very much enlightened and alive because I am embracing life and all it has to offer.

Whats that got to do with good and evil? My statement in response to your good and evil is as follows:

There will always be good and evil irregardless of religion. The desire to steal, to be greedy...etc.. are all explainable with science. Religion as I said is merely a comfort zone because you desire something to make your own life worth living.

[quote='ecolox']Yes, you put your eggs in the trash compactor.

What are you talking about?

That was supposed to read "...because I pray my life is less convenient". I don't know why you keep misquoting me.

I had another look and realized I read it wrongly. I apologize.

My stand is still firm though, that prayer does nothing. We make things happen on our own.

Of course people who reject God are going to find me to be a dismal failure. Righteousness is allegiance to God.

Do you know the definition of "righteousness"? the quality or state of being just or rightful; morally right

I do not have to believe in a supreme being to do what is right in life.

[ecolox]

I challenge you to name a single positive action provided by religion that could not be done by a secular person! Here's a hint; you can't!

I already asked this - where is the atheist equivalent of Jesus?

Good-night theVOID, if I answer your latest concerns it will be later if ever.

[theVOID]

I challenge you to name a single positive action provided by religion that could not be done by a secular person! Here's a hint; you can't!

I already asked this - where is the atheist equivalent of Jesus?

Good-night theVOID, if I answer your latest concerns it will be later if ever.

Yes - Where is that Atheist authority figure who we worship and praise, who we give all responsibility for our sins to? Where is this Atheist who one foolishly tells us to love our enemies, to have no thought for the morrow, to give up all our possessions? Where is this Atheist who can tell us to love others no matter what they think but threatens us to an eternity of suffering in fire if we don't love him?

There is none, and it's a good thing. I'm not impressed in the least by your Jesus myth, i'm not impressed by Authority either.

[leo-rcc]

I already asked this - where is the atheist equivalent of Jesus?

That is most probably the most stupid question I encountered ever. And the fact that you even think this is a valid question reveals how misguided your perception of atheism is. I suggest you get a clue about atheism first before trying to argue against it.

I don't argue with theists usually because I fail to see the point. But you are so far of the mark it is beyond laughable.

[theVOID]

I already asked this - where is the atheist equivalent of Jesus?

That is most probably the most stupid question I encountered ever. And the fact that you even think this is a valid question reveals how misguided your perception of atheism is. I suggest you get a clue about atheism first before trying to argue against it.

I don't argue with theists usually because I fail to see the point. But you are so far of the mark it is beyond laughable.

Someone agrees Ecolox IS the epitome of stupidity.