The response to miracle requests in Quran.

[Minimalist]

The only time I think about islam is when some barbaric prick blows himself up for some silly reason or when one of them shows up here blathering on about his particular vision of god. Otherwise, they are as irrelevant to me as the xtian assholes who are equally sure of their bullshit.

Personally, I get some small amusement out of letting them know that I belong to the "pox on both your houses" school.

And that's about it. This is a great place to chat with people who have a solid scientific view of the world. You wouldn't get this on either a xtian or a muslim web site. They can't stand dissent.

[paulpablo]

If you ask a muslim what the miracle or proof is, from my experience they will tell you that it's because no one can produce a surah like it.

I had a muslim ask me what would be better proof than this and i told him it would be an angel giving me and everyone else the info personally on a yearly basis and updating the quran on a yearly basis so it's never reproduced or translated by man wrongly.

He then said but how would i know it wasn't a jinn and it was an angel.

I said how did muhammad know it wasn't a jinn and it was an angel.

And basically after a long argument which didn't go anywhere he just got angry and said "well you have your proof in the miracle that no one can produce a surah like what is in the quran"

I've always wondered if I'm just being ignorant but i don't understand the challenge.
First of all the word "like" being used to mean something which resembles something is subjective, some people might say a cloud looks like a vagina someone else might say a butterfly.
To me the bible is "like" the quran.
And again I know I've said this point before, but if the claim is that it is so well written then why do people mistake words in the verses.

It means epochs not days, it says beat but it doesn't mean beat, ribs doesn't mean ribs backbone doesn't mean backbone and so on and so on.

I think the idea here is that people read the quran and probably said "this doesn't look that good to me" then they read the verse that says god only lets people see his brilliance who he wants to guide, so then they would say "ohhhhh wait yeh i see it now, wow this book is bloody amazing isn't it, I'm loving this quran now unlike those idiot disbelievers who god has decided not to guide"

[Mystic]

Paulpablo, from what appears to me, the author of Quran was very talented and had a gift of eloquence and poetry that far exceeded the people, and took advantage of it.

There is no logical basis to the Quran challenge, it's non-sequitor.

But the topic I'm discussing was about miracles aside from the Quran. The responses to that were very irrational, they were red herrings except one of them that then gives an absurd reasoning.

But to be honest, I never have ruled out the possibility that Messengers were sent to remind humanity of who they are, and that Mohammad was such a Messenger, but then the book(s) got corrupted.

This was specially in time where reasoning and education was very low. Perhaps we have grown to a state where we don't need Messengers anymore.

Perhaps not. Perhaps there will be "The Mahdi".

I don't know. I am agnostic towards Messengers being sent.

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

TL DR: The people were asking Mohammad to bring about a miracle like previous Prophets were sent with miracles, the responses were red-herrings and also a response that was illogical (ie. the only reason signs weren't sent is because previous nations rejected them).

Many miracles were given. The Qur'an itself was one. Umar (RA) was running to Muhammad's house with a sword to kill him but when he heard the words of the Qur'an he knew they were from god and put his sword down and took his shahadah.
When the unbelievers in Makkah asked the Prophet Muhammad to show them a miracle, he showed them the splitting of the moon.
[ Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3637, and Saheeh Muslim, #2802]

Another miracle was the flowing of water through Muhammad’s fingers when his companions got thirsty and had no water except a little in a vessel. They came to him and told him that they had no water to make ablution nor to drink except for what was in the vessel. So, Muhammad put his hand in the vessel, and the water started gushing out between his fingers. So, they drank and made ablution.
[Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3576, and Saheeh Muslim, #1856]

[Mystic]

That's another thing. Hadiths show tons of miracles were done. Yet Quran is making excuses of not sending miracles. Verse 17:59 makes an illogical excuse of why miracles were not sent (at least to that point). Also, Quran talks about a moon miracle. Also, the rest of the responses were red herrings (the other verses I showed).

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

Just done a quick search from Tafsir Ibn Kathir on verse 17:59:
The Reason why Allah did not send Signs or Miracles

Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "The idolators said: `O Muhammad, you claim that before you there were Prophets, among whom was one to whom the wind was subjugated, and another who could bring the dead back to life. If you want us to believe in you, ask your Lord to turn As-Safa' into gold for us.' Allah conveyed to him by inspiration (Wahy): `I have heard what they have said. If you wish, I will do what they say, but if they do not believe after that, the punishment will come down upon them, because after the sign has been sent, there is no room for speculation. Or if you wish, I will be patient with your people and give them more time.' He said:

«يَارَبِّ اسْتَأْنِ بِهِم»

(O Lord, give them more time.)'' This was also narrated by Qatadah, Ibn Jurayj and others. Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "The people of Makkah asked the Prophet to turn As-Safa' into gold for them, and to remove the mountains (from around Makkah) so that they could cultivate the land. It was said to him (by Allah): `If you wish, I will be patient and give them more time, or if you wish, I will do what they are asking, but if they then disbelieve, they will be destroyed as the nations before them were destroyed.' He said,

«لَا، بَلِ اسْتَأْنِ بِهِم»

(No, be patient and give them more time.) Then Allah revealed:

﴿وَمَا مَنَعَنَآ أَن نُّرْسِلَ بِالاٌّيَـتِ إِلاَّ أَن كَذَّبَ بِهَا الاٌّوَّلُونَ﴾

(And nothing stops Us from sending the Ayat but that the people of old denied them. ) An-Nasa'i also reported this from the Hadith of Jarir. Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said: The Quraysh said to the Prophet , "Ask your Lord to turn As-Safa' into gold and we will believe in you.'' He said,

«وَتَفْعَلُونَ؟»

(Will you really do that) They said, "Yes.'' So he asked his Lord, and Jibril came to him and said: "Your Lord conveys His Salam to you and says, `If you wish, I will turn As-Safa' into gold for them, then whoever of them disbelieves after that, will be punished with a torment the like of which has never be seen in creation; or if you wish, I will open the gates of repentance and mercy for them.''' He said,

«بَلْ بَابُ التَّوْبَةِ وَالرَّحْمَة»

(Rather the gates of repentance and mercy.)

﴿وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالاٌّيَـتِ إِلاَّ تَخْوِيفًا﴾

(And We sent not the signs except to make them afraid (of destruction).) Qatadah said, "Allah makes people afraid with whatever signs He wills, so that they may learn a lesson and remember and return to Him. We were told that Al-Kufah was shaken at the time of Ibn Mas`ud, who said: `O people, your Lord is rebuking you, so pay heed!''' Similarly, it was reported that Al-Madinah was struck by several earthquakes at the time of `Umar bin Al-Khattab. `Umar said: "You have changed, by Allah, and if such a quake were to strike again, I will subject you to such and such.'' The Prophet said, in a Hadith whose authenticity is agreed upon:

«إِنَّ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ آيَتَانِ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللهِ وَإِنَّهُمَا لَا يَنْكَسِفَانِ لِمَوْتِ أَحَدٍ وَلَا لِحَيَاتِهِ، وَلَكِنَّ اللهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ يُخَوِّفُ بِهِمَا عِبَادَهُ، فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمْ ذَلِكَ فَافْزَعُوا إِلَى ذِكْرِهِ وَدُعَائِهِ وَاسْتِغْفَارِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَا أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَاللهِ مَا أَحَدٌ أَغْيَرَ مِنَ اللهِ أَنْ يَزْنِيَ عَبْدُهُ أَوْ تَزْنِيَ أَمَتُهُ، يَا أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَاللهِ لَوْ تَعْلَمُونَ مَا أَعْلَمُ لَضَحِكْتُمْ قَلِيلًا وَلَبَكَيْتُمْ كَثِيرًا»

(The sun and the moon are two of the signs of Allah, and they are not eclipsed for the death or life of anyone. Allah uses them to make His servants afraid, so if you see them, hasten to remember Him, call on Him and seek His forgiveness.) Then he said: (O Ummah of Muhammad, by Allah, no one has a greater sense of jealousy than Allah if He sees His servant, or female servant, committing Zina (illegal sexual intercourse). O Ummah of Muhammad, if you knew what I know, you would laugh little and weep much.)

[Mystic]

What's the reason given in 17:59?
What's the reason given in those hadiths?
Are the two the same reason?

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

Yes. The people went show us a sign. He asked Allah. Allah said if i send the sign they cannot deny anymore as if they do they will receive punishment. So i can delay it if you wish. Muhammad said yes delay it. So he delayed it. "If you wish, I will be patient and give them more time, or if you wish, I will do what they are asking, but if they then disbelieve, they will be destroyed as the nations before them were destroyed."
"And nothing stops Us from sending the Ayat but that the people of old denied them." So he would of sent it but muhammad didn't want Allah to in-case they denied it like the people in the past did. And Allah knows best. Thats just what i gathered from the Tafsir.

This is a good thread. Interesting questions.

[Mystic]

You paraphrased the reason signs were not sent per hadiths very well.

But as far I can tell, 17:59 states none of that. Instead it states the only reason why God didn't send signs is because people in the past rejected them.

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

You paraphrased the reason signs were not sent per hadiths very well.

But as far I can tell, 17:59 states none of that. Instead it states the only reason why God didn't send signs is because people in the past rejected them.

"And nothing has prevented Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as a visible sign, but they wronged her. And We send not the signs except as a warning."
Yeah the verse clearly states that's the reason.