Proving God Existence

[littleendian]

Okay, so if Allah exists, then he also created all the creatures (from water apparently, which makes at least a bit more sense than Christian dogma).

But why did he create man with an appendix, which absolutely serves no function and is even potentially harmful? Is he incompetent or evil or both or does he just not care that much?

[Tartarus Sauce]

Okay, so if Allah exists, then he also created all the creatures (from water apparently, which makes at least a bit more sense than Christian dogma).

But why did he create man with an appendix, which absolutely serves no function and is even potentially harmful? Is he incompetent or evil or both or does he just not care that much?

Most scientists classify the appendix as a vestigial structure. It hasn't always been purposeless, it just lost it's original function over time to due to the conditions necessitating its service disappearing.

Just felt like I needed to call you out on that technicality there.

[Jackalope]

Most scientists classify the appendix as a vestigial structure. It hasn't always been purposeless, it just lost it's original function over time to due to the conditions necessitating its service disappearing.

Just felt like I needed to call you out on that technicality there.

I've managed fine without mine since 1982.

[Cato]

One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

You still fail to demonstrate why any God is necessary for the creation of our universe. Even if you were able to do this, you would have the additional burden of proving that your God was responsible for your special book.

[littleendian]

One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

Plus, there's not necessarily a "first" thing in the universe that exists outside of our minds. Depending on the metaphysical world-view you subscribe to one can argue that time and space only exist relative to our minds, they don't have substance in and of themselfs, they are the categories our mind produces to make sense of the timeless, spaceless (?) Thing-in-itself (as old Kant called it) that is the cause of our sense-perceptions.

If you take that (to me ever again goosebump-inducing) view, to which the wise people of the east had more intuitive access, calling it the veil of the Maya, if you really understand the implications of that idea, then there is no beginning and no end, no here nor there, that exists outside of our consciousness, i.e. has "real" physical reality.

Therefore, no God necessary to get the entire show going because no beginning and no end outside of the mind.

Philosophy and particularly meta-physics should be mandatory reading in school, one idea would be to replace bible study, good riddance

eidt: sorry cato, fixed quote attribution

[Cato]

One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

Plus, there's not necessarily a "first" thing in the universe that exists outside of our minds. Depending on the metaphysical world-view you subscribe to one can argue that time and space only exist relative to our minds, they don't have substance in and of themselfs, they are the categories our mind produces to make sense of the timeless, spaceless (?) Thing-in-itself (as old Kant called it) that is the cause of our sense-perceptions.

If you take that (to me ever again goosebump-inducing) view, to which the wise people of the east had more intuitive access, calling it the veil of the Maya, if you really understand the implications of that idea, then there is no beginning and no end, no here nor there, that exists outside of our consciousness, i.e. has "real" physical reality.

Therefore, no God necessary to get the entire show going because no beginning and no end outside of the mind.

Philosophy and particularly meta-physics should be mandatory reading in school, one idea would be to replace bible study, good riddance

I find it amusing that someone that goes out of his/her way to translate logical fallacies into 'thou shalt' statements in his/her profile will fuck up something as simple as quote attribution.

[Muslim Scholar]

Sorry, you are wrong
My proof talks about first event (any event) it doesn't matter if there are 100 or million universes

One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

lol, first event of our Universe I can buy that....
First event of whatever there is besides our universe... that... you can't claim anything about it. So your proof dies at step 1, again.

Your dreams and wishes are not facts, you need to work very hard to refute it.

The proof is very clear about the existence of a first event (overall)
Then it can be applied on any subset of events
for every subset of events there must be a first event (in that subset)

It can be in our universe or others or at no Universe at all

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One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

If God doesn't need a start, then you are allowing it to be said that something may exist which doesn't need a start. If things may exist which do not need a start, then why add a new piece to an already broken puzzle? Why not just believe that the universe has always existed?

You are saying "X is impossible. God achieves X." Therefore, X is not impossible, and the rest of your argument is meaningless. I might just as well say, "This sentence is false. . . thanks to God."

You need to read the proof again
I didn't just day that
It is proved because of the Universe nature (dynamic)
However it cannot be applied similarly to God as we don't know the same about him.

You need to realize the trick here, We know some facts (directly about the universe) but for God we can prove his attributes only from what we know about existence, so you cannot repeat the process again on God.

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So then it is possible for god to have been created by another god who he doesn't know about?

Theoretically, yes
but in this case he is not God, if we define the word God as a creator but not created.

Does this mean god had no conscious flow of thought before the big bang? If so then how did he decide to start the big bang if events such as thoughts within him are impossible before the first event?

Good question?
Islam tells about God that he is one unit "Samad", there is nothing as flow inside him, or that he is divided into separate/identified parts.

Asking how he do things, is impossible to be answered or even understood
Because we are only used to construct an idea by knowing its details
For God there is no whole and details, he is one unit and unique.

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This thread has evolved from Proving God Existence to Proving Muslim Scholar Logic is wrong .

This is very fine, I used the same method for the proof itself
I didn't prove God, I proved the Impossibility of no God.

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Okay, so if Allah exists, then he also created all the creatures (from water apparently, which makes at least a bit more sense than Christian dogma).

But why did he create man with an appendix, which absolutely serves no function and is even potentially harmful? Is he incompetent or evil or both or does he just not care that much?

Non existence of knowledge is not a knowledge of non-existence

Appendix function

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One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

You still fail to demonstrate why any God is necessary for the creation of our universe. Even if you were able to do this, you would have the additional burden of proving that your God was responsible for your special book.

You are true about this, but this will come later
If I do that now, I'll have to spend half of my day on the forum (or develop a clone of me)

but wait maybe if I do that often, I can evolve into a man with 100 hands (with each hand having 101 fingers as the keyboard keys); then I can enter the forum as 100 different users!

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One of them must be the start and creating it must be the first event from a single unique God.

Plus, there's not necessarily a "first" thing in the universe that exists outside of our minds. Depending on the metaphysical world-view you subscribe to one can argue that time and space only exist relative to our minds, they don't have substance in and of themselfs, they are the categories our mind produces to make sense of the timeless, spaceless (?) Thing-in-itself (as old Kant called it) that is the cause of our sense-perceptions.

If you take that (to me ever again goosebump-inducing) view, to which the wise people of the east had more intuitive access, calling it the veil of the Maya, if you really understand the implications of that idea, then there is no beginning and no end, no here nor there, that exists outside of our consciousness, i.e. has "real" physical reality.

Therefore, no God necessary to get the entire show going because no beginning and no end outside of the mind.

Good try,
For a proof to work we need to agree on the premises

You are trying to refute my premises which is the disjoint (Or Logic itself), in that case my proof is not applicable to you

but if you are true, then there is no you or me or the proof itself!
You don't even need to refute it.

[pocaracas]

lol, first event of our Universe I can buy that....
First event of whatever there is besides our universe... that... you can't claim anything about it. So your proof dies at step 1, again.

Your dreams and wishes are not facts, you need to work very hard to refute it.

Nor are yours...
So far, all your works has been in vain...

The proof is very clear about the existence of a first event (overall)

No, you simply assert that there must have been such a first event.
You never proved it.

Then it can be applied on any subset of events
for every subset of events there must be a first event (in that subset)

subset?!
Who's talking about subsets?
You're claiming there was a very first event... an absolute first event.

All I say is... maybe not.
[/quote]

[bennyboy]

You need to realize the trick here, We know some facts (directly about the universe) but for God we can prove his attributes only from what we know about existence, so you cannot repeat the process again on God.

Here's what's happening: you have a philosophical issue which you cannot solve, because you see "normal" logic as paradoxical. So you create a magic "solve all problems" box, prostate yourself to it, and consider the issues solved.

The problem is that you can attribute this philosophical magical quantity to ANY imaginary entity, not only to Allah, your preferred magical entity.

Problem: everything which exists must have a beginning, but infinite regression hurts my brain, so something must have the special power of already existing despite never having been created:
Solution 1: a magic space monkey which IS WHILE NOT BEING did it.
Solution 2: the four psychic winds of Boobledeeboo, which eternally co-create each other, created psychic eddies, which manifest as our universe.
Solution 3: the non-sentient "Divide by Zero" formula converted all numbers to infinity, and back into the form of its non-sentient (and therefore fully mindful) will.
Solution 4: Allah magically exists without having been created, despite the rule that all things must have been created

See the problem? All the specific solutions are just the same process with different imaginary friends executing the impossible. EVEN IF we are disposed to accept the necessity of a philosophical meat-grinder that turns the impossible into the possible, why should we choose yours? The others at least have the benefit of being fun, and of not causing people to crash airplanes into buildings.

[paulpablo]

You need to realize the trick here, We know some facts (directly about the universe) but for God we can prove his attributes only from what we know about existence, so you cannot repeat the process again on God.

Here's what's happening: you have a philosophical issue which you cannot solve, because you see "normal" logic as paradoxical. So you create a magic "solve all problems" box, prostate yourself to it, and consider the issues solved.

The problem is that you can attribute this philosophical magical quantity to ANY imaginary entity, not only to Allah, your preferred magical entity.

Problem: everything which exists must have a beginning, but infinite regression hurts my brain, so something must have the special power of already existing despite never having been created:
Solution 1: a magic space monkey which IS WHILE NOT BEING did it.
Solution 2: the four psychic winds of Boobledeeboo, which eternally co-create each other, created psychic eddies, which manifest as our universe.
Solution 3: the non-sentient "Divide by Zero" formula converted all numbers to infinity, and back into the form of its non-sentient (and therefore fully mindful) will.
Solution 4: Allah magically exists without having been created, despite the rule that all things must have been created

See the problem? All the specific solutions are just the same process with different imaginary friends executing the impossible. EVEN IF we are disposed to accept the necessity of a philosophical meat-grinder that turns the impossible into the possible, why should we choose yours? The others at least have the benefit of being fun, and of not causing people to crash airplanes into buildings.

I didn't even read all this post but gave you thumbs up for the word boobledeeboo.

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paulpablo Wrote: So then it is possible for god to have been created by another god who he doesn't know about?

Theoretically, yes
but in this case he is not God, if we define the word God as a creator but not created.

Quoteoes this mean god had no conscious flow of thought before the big bang? If so then how did he decide to start the big bang if events such as thoughts within him are impossible before the first event?

Good question?
Islam tells about God that he is one unit "Samad", there is nothing as flow inside him, or that he is divided into separate/identified parts.

Asking how he do things, is impossible to be answered or even understood
Because we are only used to construct an idea by knowing its details
For God there is no whole and details, he is one unit and unique.

So as you said it is impossible for you to know how your god (a god who does things while having no flow inside him of anything) is capable of conscious thought or decisions.
This in itself is a paradox of logic, god has thought and conscious decisions, yet god has no fluid flowing inside parts at all and before the big bang has no time to operate in at all. So without time or moving parts or anything else which operates how would god be able to even create a slice of toast, he manages to create a universe.
You say you don't know which is fair enough but then why be critical of christians, they tell you god has a son they don't know how.
You are basically in the same position as everyone else, you know nothing about what is outside our time and space you are just guessing the quran is right.