Proving God Existence

[paulpablo]

Well you just said something cannot come from nothing, god is not physical and has nothing existed before god created it (due to your definition of time, two events relating to one another).
You said even god cannot do something that is against logic and that something coming from nothing goes against logic therefore god could not have created the universe because he had nothing to create it from.

Correction!
Nothing existed before God because God didn't have a start
Nothing "Variable" could exist with God as well in the begining
This logic doesn't deny the existence of other things with God as long as they are static/constants

But the quran says that god did create the heavens and the earth from nothing, according to you this is impossible since god cannot do illogical things and something from nothing is illogical.

He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

He said: Nay! your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who brought them into existence

He said: Nay, but your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who created them; and I am of those who testify unto that.

But what you are saying is that god did not create everything he just manipulated what was already there which was static and made it variable.

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Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
Muhsin Khan
Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
Pickthall
Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?
Yusuf Ali
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?
Shakir
Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing?

Most of these examples from the quran also go against your logic.
You cannot create something while it is nothing.
Also you said something cannot come from nothing so also the translation "out of nothing" also makes no sense.

Again the quran says god doesn't have to manipulate or simply change things to create things, he just needs to say the words "be" and it is.
And he is the originator of the heaven and earth, it wasn't already there and he just changed it and made it variable and not static.

Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
Muhsin Khan
The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it : "Be!" - and it is.
Pickthall
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Yusuf Ali
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
Shakir
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees an affair, He only says to it, Be, so there it is.

[Muslim Scholar]

But the quran says that god did create the heavens and the earth from nothing, according to you this is impossible since god cannot do illogical things and something from nothing is illogical.

And His Throne/dominion extends on the water - that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action....” (Qur'an 11:7)

Most Islamic texts refer to some kind of water that God created everything from

Then he created heaven and earth from Smoke or vapor (Stardust)

He (the person asking) then said, “Messenger of God, what was the creation made of?” He (the Prophet) replied, “Water.” We (the Companions) asked, “What is Paradise built of?” He replied, “A brick of silver and another of gold, cemented with strongly aromatic musk. Its pebbles are pearls and rubies, and its ground is saffron. Whoever enters it has prospered (and) will not suffer; [he] has become immortal and will never die. His clothes will never wear out, and his youth will never fade.”

He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

It means that they didn't exist

But what you are saying is that god did not create everything he just manipulated what was already there which was static and made it variable.

This is what Logic mandates!

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Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
He said also: Created him from dust
Created him from a sperm, etc.

Most of these examples from the quran also go against your logic.
You cannot create something while it is nothing.
Also you said something cannot come from nothing so also the translation "out of nothing" also makes no sense.

It is very common in language to say nothing as a figure of speech,
like to say: "You are nothing" which means almost nothing or nothing compared to me

Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

God didn't use a mechanism that we can understand to create things, it is just one action by himself

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[quote='Muslim Scholar' pid='536899' dateline='1383482718']
Correction!
Nothing existed before God because God didn't have a start
Nothing "Variable" could exist with God as well in the begining
This logic doesn't deny the existence of other things with God as long as they are static/constants

Sorry, that solves nothing. Either god created those other things (which still leaves the timeless state problem), or those things already existed (which means god did not create all things).

Yes, it means the second
When God says that he created everything, it means everything in the universe of everything we know

[Whateverist]

You are unconvincing, Muslim Scholar. I've heard no reason whatsoever to believe in your god or any other.

Does your religion require you to mislead others in order to proselytize? If not, why not be honest and confess that it is merely your unfounded leap of faith that supports your belief?

[paulpablo]

Quote:He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

Muslim scholar wrote

It means that they didn't exist

It means the quran is saying god created something from nothing which is exactly what you said god couldn't do.

Even when the quran explicitly gives examples of god creating something from nothing several times.

Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

God didn't use a mechanism that we can understand to create things, it is just one action by himself

How can you say it's a mechanism we don't understand when the quran has explained the process right here, god can create something by just saying "be", not change something, not do an action and make something constant and static into something variable, none of these things you are trying to say.
It's plain and simple, the quran says several times god is the creator, the originator, he doesn't change things or use materials already there to make things he makes things from nothing.

But what you are saying is that god did not create everything he just manipulated what was already there which was static and made it variable.

This is what Logic mandates!

You're the first muslim I've spoke to that says logic mandates that god did not create everything.

It is very common in language to say nothing as a figure of speech,
like to say: "You are nothing" which means almost nothing or nothing compared to me

Are you actually at the point now where you're using the excuse that god was just using a "figure of speech"
It's supposed to be the perfect words from the most powerful being in existence and you're telling me it contains figures of speech, idioms and other imperfect methods of communication that can be interpreted wrongly, and it that it does this repeatedly everytime it says god created something from nothing?
The verse didn't even say "nothing in comparison to..." or anything of the sort.

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Do they not think deeply (in their ownselves) about themselves (how Allah created them from nothing, and similarly He will resurrect them)?

He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

I found the following quote on an Islamic website,
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/we-...nothing-2/

Creator of the heavens and the earth from nothingness, He has only to say when He wills a thing, “Be,” and it is.(2:117)

The Arabic word “beda’a” means creation of something out of nothing. This word also connotes the fact that something is created not on a pattern previously designed of something but as a completely new entity having no precedence. The greatest marvel of the creation is the creation of all concepts out of nothing.

http://harunyahya.com/en/Articles/116019...-the-quran

God Created the Universe from Nothing

God creates everything, in the form and at the time that He chooses, without the use of any model and out of nothing.

Another website made by muslims who seem to know either more or less about what the quran is saying than you do because they've come away with a totally different idea than you.

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

Sorry, that solves nothing. Either god created those other things (which still leaves the timeless state problem), or those things already existed (which means god did not create all things).

Yes, it means the second
When God says that he created everything, it means everything in the universe of everything we know

Again, this just creates more problems. If god didn't create everything, there's no reason to believe he created anything. If saying that god is the 'first cause' is an exaggeration, why should we stop there? What is there to say that the rest of it isn't an exaggeration also?

This also goes against your own argument in the OP:

Part III
Trying to figure some necessary/definitive attributes for G
1. G is the creator/initiator of the Universe
2. G is unique
3. G has actions (p)
4. G is outside time, G must be one unit as if there are more than one entity time can be related to each other, but as time did not exist, then G is one UN-separated self-dependent unit
(The Eternal, The one, The self sufficient)
5. G is outside and separate from the Universe
6. G has a will; as if he didn’t then creating/starting the universe must be initiated from an external source which contradicts with the (proved) non-existence of time.
7. As G is unique and not similar to matter in the universe, he doesn’t have an image (an image is a reflection of light from objects; objects are constructed from molecules and atoms)
Any religion that claims an image for God is a false religion by default

(Emphasis added)

You also hit the problem that creationists love to bring up in order to argue that the universe must have been created at a finite point in the past. Basically, if god is eternal, then the amount of time god before created the universe was infinite. Since, by definition, you can't reach the end of infinity, the point at which god created the universe can never have happened. Now, I know why this argument isn't valid but I'm interested in whether or not you know

[Muslim Scholar]

Yes, it means the second
When God says that he created everything, it means everything in the universe of everything we know

Again, this just creates more problems. If god didn't create everything, there's no reason to believe he created anything.

How did you get to that?
and it is not about belief at all, it is a logical proof

If saying that god is the 'first cause' is an exaggeration

It is not, he is the first cause because he made the first event

, why should we stop there? What is there to say that the rest of it isn't an exaggeration also?

Because infinite events is impossible

This also goes against your own argument in the OP:

I don't see any contradiction here!

You also hit the problem that creationists love to bring up in order to argue that the universe must have been created at a finite point in the past. Basically, if god is eternal, then the amount of time god before created the universe was infinite. Since, by definition, you can't reach the end of infinity, the point at which god created the universe can never have happened. Now, I know why this argument isn't valid but I'm interested in whether or not you know

The problem in that argument is the definition of time
Time itself doesn't exist
Using my definition which no one can disagree on it
Time itself had a start (with the first event)

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Quote:He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

Notice that "From nothing" is between braces; this words don't exist in the verse, it is just an effort to explain the verses

How can you say it's a mechanism we don't understand when the quran has explained the process right here, god can create something by just saying "be", not change something, not do an action and make something constant and static into something variable, none of these things you are trying to say.
It's plain and simple, the quran says several times god is the creator, the originator, he doesn't change things or use materials already there to make things he makes things from nothing.

Islamic texts explain each other, you must take all of them
the other texts refers that God started everything from "Water"

But what you are saying is that god did not create everything he just manipulated what was already there which was static and made it variable.
This is what Logic mandates!

You're the first muslim I've spoke to that says logic mandates that god did not create everything.

I'm a specialist in Algorithms and have very good knowledge about Islam; I don't think that you can find many like me

It is very common in language to say nothing as a figure of speech,
like to say: "You are nothing" which means almost nothing or nothing compared to me

Are you actually at the point now where you're using the excuse that god was just using a "figure of speech"

It is not an excuse; Quran is full of that

It's supposed to be the perfect words from the most powerful being in existence and you're telling me it contains figures of speech, idioms and other imperfect methods of communication that can be interpreted wrongly, and it that it does this repeatedly everytime it says god created something from nothing?

The word "perfect" is not applicable to Quran, we can say error-free, but perfect means that it resembles some ideal model (which is not)

Do they not think deeply (in their ownselves) about themselves (how Allah created them from nothing, and similarly He will resurrect them)?

He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

Sorry again the word nothing doesn't exist in the Quranic text

The Arabic word “beda’a” means creation of something out of nothing.

No, it just mean started

http://harunyahya.com/en/Articles/116019...-the-quran
[quote] God Created the Universe from Nothing

I'm not responsible for other people interpretation

Another website made by muslims who seem to know either more or less about what the quran is saying than you do because they've come away with a totally different idea than you.

Yes, people are different

[paulpablo]

It isn't just other muslims who disagree with your interpretation, I have to disagree with you if you say the following verses aren't speaking of god making something from nothing.

Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
Muhsin Khan
Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
Pickthall
Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?
Yusuf Ali
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?
Shakir
Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing?

Clearly saying man has been created of nothing, not nothing in comparison to something else, not nothing but...... just simply nothing.

Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
Muhsin Khan
The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it : "Be!" - and it is.
Pickthall
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Yusuf Ali
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
Shakir
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees an affair, He only says to it, Be, so there it is.

It doesn't say god is the manipulator of static things making them variable, it doesn't say god took something then made it something else, it says he is responsible for the prime origin of heaven and earth and he just needs to say the words "be" and it is, no actions other that vocal commands.

He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

If you can read all that and still thing god didn't create something from nothing you must have problems accepting the information given to you in black and white.

[Muslim Scholar]

Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?

If you take this words literally; it doesn't make any sense
How to refer to somebody as nothing?
Nothing is simply No thing, so saying "He was nothing" has no meaning
This is different than saying out of nothing

It doesn't say god is the manipulator of static things making them variable, it doesn't say god took something then made it something else, it says he is responsible for the prime origin of heaven and earth and he just needs to say the words "be" and it is, no actions other that vocal commands.

Quran is not a book of science to explain to the world How god is doing things, it is using simple words for the common person to understand

[quote]He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (Truth).

If you can read all that and still thing god didn't create something from nothing you must have problems accepting the information given to you in black and white.

Again (From Nothing) is not in the Arabic text!

[smax]

Part I
Premises
I’ll only use Axioms about time & universe
1. The Universe is dynamic and each second will take a new state
so its states can be represented by a function of time U(t) ≠U(t+1)

2. Time is a conceptual frame of reference; i.e. a relation between two events;
• Event 1: a consistent (as we assume) set of repeated events we use as a reference (e.g. clock ticks, radiation, moon cycle, etc.)
• Event 2: an event that we are trying to measure in reference to event(s) 1 (e.g. a car trip, age, etc.)

3. Assuming that time is infinite t ɛ { -∞, -∞+1, ……, 0, 1, 2, 3, … ,∞-1,∞}

4. Defining two sets of the Universe states in the past

Set 1: All Statuses separated from (1/1/2000 00:00:00) by a finite number of seconds
Set 2: All Statuses separated from (1/1/2000 00:00:00) by an infinite number of seconds
S1= {U(1), U(2), ….}, S2={U(-∞), U(-∞+1), U(-∞+2),….}

Each set can have (Finite, Infinite or 0) number of members
So the options are:
1. S1 = ɸ (i.e. it is empty)
False, as it contradicts with the ability to measure (time/seconds)

2. S1 has infinite no. of elements
False, as it contradicts with the definition of Set 1; it has only Statuses separated by a finite number of seconds so it must have a finite No. of elements.

3. S1 is finite & S2≠ɸ
False: it means that Set 1 has a last point where next points are away by an infinite time/seconds, but as the next point is separated by an extra 1 second, that point does not exist

4. S1≠ɸ & S2= ɸ
which is the only true and possible option

The conclusion is that
The universe had a finite number of states and had a start or beginning, Time itself had a start as well.

(This part is a proof by perfect induction, analyzing all options and proving that they lead to the same conclusion)

____________________________________________________________


Part II
Then to prove the necessity for a creator
Assuming that Existence E=U+G where U is the universe and G is another object/deity (which can be 0 )
(E = Existence, U=Known Universe, G=something external to the universe)
According to Axiom 1; the universe states are dynamic not constant
As the universe is part of the existence (or all of it) then Existence is dynamic as well (i.e. can be represented by a function)
E(t)=U(t)+G

In addition as proved time itself had a start which means that that the universe state U(0) was not a function at all it was either nothing or a constant; taking Limit as t-->0 U=C or U= 0
As U(0) was constant then G must exist and be dynamic as well G≠0 Ʌ G=G(p)
The correct formula should be E(t,p)=T U(t)+G(p); p is another parameter that changes the states of G
A complete Universe function must include another parameter to change from constant to dynamic at t=0 E(0,p)=C+G(p)
It should be E(t,p)=T U(t)+G(p)
G must exist and did created/changed the universe at its beginning
We can call this parameter the actions of a creator (G)

(This part is a proof by contradiction, based on the definition of
static vs. dynamic (constant vs. variable))

____________________________________________________________ 
Part III
Trying to figure some necessary/definitive attributes for G
1. G is the creator/initiator of the Universe
2. G is unique
3. G has actions (p)
4. G is outside time, G must be one unit as if there are more than one entity time can be related to each other, but as time did not exist, then G is one UN-separated self-dependent unit
(The Eternal, The one, The self sufficient)
5. G is outside and separate from the Universe
6. G has a will; as if he didn’t then creating/starting the universe must be initiated from an external source which contradicts with the (proved) non-existence of time.
7. As G is unique and not similar to matter in the universe, he doesn’t have an image (an image is a reflection of light from objects; objects are constructed from molecules and atoms)
Any religion that claims an image for God is a false religion by default

The only religion that gives a matching model for God is ISLAM

Well, glad we solved that mystery.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go buy my wife some appropriate attire. That woman loves to show off her ankles and nostrils.

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

Please forgive the thinly veiled rascim