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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 19, 2013 at 2:48 am
(This post was last modified: April 19, 2013 at 3:14 am by ManMachine.)
(April 18, 2013 at 3:19 pm)Strongbad Wrote: (April 18, 2013 at 4:02 am)ManMachine Wrote: As for being 'part of a group', being an atheist is not a social choice for me it's a personal assertion that there is no god(s). As far as I'm concerned there is no 'group' just individuals with a variety of opinions, ideologies and philosophies who agree on one point, that there are no deities.
Your lack of understanding of what atheism is only serves to bolster the suspicions of members here (including myself) that you are simply posing as an atheist. Very few atheists make the claim "there are no deities". Sure, a small fraction of atheists are "strong atheists" and will make the positive claim, but of course that is recognized by most of us as simply a bare assertion.
Further, your disjointed claim that "neo-atheists" embrace Meliorism and somehow "hold all modern science to be inviolable" doesn't help your case much. Neither Meliorism or science have anything to do with disbelieving the deistic claims of others.
It helps if you read what's written. I am saying the absence of belief in a deity is characteristic of atheism, I also very clarly said,
"... with a variety of opinions, ideologies and philosophies ..."
I don't understand why you would pick a phrase in isolation then proceed to re-say what I've already said to point out it needs saying?
Utterly pointless.
MM
(April 18, 2013 at 3:23 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: As far as I can tell, MM has yet to define "Human Progress" and how we would know it if we saw it.
Metrics such as life expectancy, child mortality rates, starvation rates, numbers of women dieing during childbirth, murder rates and so on, are apparently not useful to measure progress.
So what is then?
You seem to have your own definition.
The reason I'm not defining it is because it is a notion I am asserting is a delusion, there is no acceptable definition of a delusion. There are any number of different opinions throughout this thread as to what constitutes 'human progress', there seem to be a vague agreement that it is some kind of value judgement heavily reliant on social context. All of which underlines my point.
I'm not going to fall into the trap of defining your delusion for you.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 19, 2013 at 1:20 pm
(April 19, 2013 at 2:48 am)ManMachine Wrote: It helps if you read what's written. I am saying the absence of belief in a deity is characteristic of atheism, I also very clarly said,
"... with a variety of opinions, ideologies and philosophies ..."
I don't understand why you would pick a phrase in isolation then proceed to re-say what I've already said to point out it needs saying?
Utterly pointless.
It helps if you read what you wrote:
Quote:As for being 'part of a group', being an atheist is not a social choice for me it's a personal assertion that there is no god(s). As far as I'm concerned there is no 'group' just individuals with a variety of opinions, ideologies and philosophies who agree on one point, that there are no deities.
Bolding mine. Atheists do not agree that there are no deities. Atheists do not believe the claims made by theists that deities exist. You'd understand the distinction if you were an atheist, and not a religious apologist. It doesn't bother me though, poe, you will either come clean or otherwise be "outed" sooner or later.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 20, 2013 at 1:23 am
Is there a "Sale" on some where for Poes/ Trolls?
We seem to be getting quite a few new members of questionable integrity lately.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 21, 2013 at 8:07 pm
(This post was last modified: April 21, 2013 at 8:19 pm by ManMachine.)
(April 19, 2013 at 1:20 pm)Strongbad Wrote: (April 19, 2013 at 2:48 am)ManMachine Wrote: It helps if you read what's written. I am saying the absence of belief in a deity is characteristic of atheism, I also very clarly said,
"... with a variety of opinions, ideologies and philosophies ..."
I don't understand why you would pick a phrase in isolation then proceed to re-say what I've already said to point out it needs saying?
Utterly pointless.
It helps if you read what you wrote:
Quote:As for being 'part of a group', being an atheist is not a social choice for me it's a personal assertion that there is no god(s). As far as I'm concerned there is no 'group' just individuals with a variety of opinions, ideologies and philosophies who agree on one point, that there are no deities.
Bolding mine. Atheists do not agree that there are no deities. Atheists do not believe the claims made by theists that deities exist. You'd understand the distinction if you were an atheist, and not a religious apologist. It doesn't bother me though, poe, you will either come clean or otherwise be "outed" sooner or later.
What is a 'poe'?
If deities do not exist then by implication there are none.
Did I miss the school trip to the stupid factory where they gave out free samples?
MM
(April 20, 2013 at 1:23 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Is there a "Sale" on some where for Poes/ Trolls?
We seem to be getting quite a few new members of questionable integrity lately.
Stop pointlessly attacking me and talk about the substance of my debate.
This paranoid shit is really boring and I wish the mods would do something about it because it wrecks the thread.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 21, 2013 at 9:22 pm
(April 21, 2013 at 8:07 pm)ManMachine Wrote: What is a 'poe'?
It's a reference to Poe's Law, which posits that a parody of extremism is difficult (if not impossible) to differentiate from genuine extremism.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 21, 2013 at 10:51 pm
(April 21, 2013 at 8:07 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Did I miss the school trip to the stupid factory where they gave out free samples?
No, jackass poe, you apparently made several trips to the sample table.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 24, 2013 at 7:33 pm
(April 21, 2013 at 10:51 pm)Strongbad Wrote: (April 21, 2013 at 8:07 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Did I miss the school trip to the stupid factory where they gave out free samples?
No, jackass poe, you apparently made several trips to the sample table.
Ok, let me clear it up for you and others who think I'm a religious apologist (especially those Christians who gave me kudos on the OP, I'm not a Christian I'm argueing against Christian dogma influncing atheist thought).
I'm an atheist. My philosophy is currently influenced by British Philosopher John N Gray, that's not to say it won't change but at this point in time I find his ideas compelling. If you are familiar with his work then you will understand where I'm coming from (and possibly, going to).
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 24, 2013 at 8:11 pm
MM,
Perhaps you missed the memo, but Francis Bacon rid the world of the need for the Aristotelian idea of 'final cause', as it relates to science, 400 years ago. As I noted earlier in the thread, you jammed the idea of 'final cause' into your definition of progress in order to discredit progress because it required a final cause; hence, you are still arguing with yourself.
Also, I think you are misrepresenting Gray's position. Gray would not deny human progress as it relates to the reduction in infant mortality rates or the improvement in longevity, as examples. Gray's point is that political and ethical progress has not kept pace with scientific progress resulting in advances in technology being used for unethical purposes. This would have been a conversation worth having, but it wasn't your argument.
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RE: Meliorism - The rise of neo-atheism and the fall of reason
April 25, 2013 at 4:25 am
(This post was last modified: April 25, 2013 at 4:25 am by ManMachine.)
(April 24, 2013 at 8:11 pm)cato123 Wrote: MM,
Perhaps you missed the memo, but Francis Bacon rid the world of the need for the Aristotelian idea of 'final cause', as it relates to science, 400 years ago. As I noted earlier in the thread, you jammed the idea of 'final cause' into your definition of progress in order to discredit progress because it required a final cause; hence, you are still arguing with yourself.
Also, I think you are misrepresenting Gray's position. Gray would not deny human progress as it relates to the reduction in infant mortality rates or the improvement in longevity, as examples. Gray's point is that political and ethical progress has not kept pace with scientific progress resulting in advances in technology being used for unethical purposes. This would have been a conversation worth having, but it wasn't your argument.
While I acknowledge I am influenced by Gray I am not representing Gray's position, I'm presenting mine.
I have said all along I do not reject the technological changes brought by science and technology and the power it endows us with.
Bacon's position was that final causes are discredited because they temp us to amalgamate theological and teleological points of doctrine, which is precisely my position. This is an arguement for the discrediting of final causes not that we are 'rid' of them, and what I'm attempting to show is that we are not 'rid' of them despite the prevailing opinion (at least in this thread).
I'm a bit pushed for time right now but I would also argue you have not fully represented Gray's position. So I'll come back to that one later.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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