Richard Carrier

[Darkstar]

Jerkoff smiley also represents a man stroking his penis.

And to think I didn't even know that when I fist joined. /slang illiterate
http://atheistforums.org/thread-11705-po...#pid349627

[Lord Privy Seal]

with an hour long dissertation on why he thinks jesus is bullshit ( my words.)

Just a reminder if you want to speak topically Minnie, we are discussing how your boy's arguement fails and how it mirrors every other fail arguement based on the avaiable 'facts' in the remaining roman record. Not biblical context.

Drich, it occurred to me upon further consideration that Minimalist's "summary" doesn't quite do justice to Dr. Carrier's presentation, or provide you with much of an incentive to take an hour out of your life to watch it. I hope you will watch it, as it contains much fascinating information even if you disagree with Carrier's main thesis.

Carrier is expanding on a theory of Christian origins advocated by a group of scholars including Robert M. Price, Earl Doherty, and Carrier himself as a recent "convert." This theory holds that the earliest Christians did not conceive of Christ as a man who had recently walked around in Galilee. Rather, he was a purely celestial deity whom early Christians experienced in visions, mystical revelations (comparable to what we now call "channeling"), and esoteric modes of interpreting the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus was a specific type of divine intermediary between the wholly numinous spiritual realm and the earthly realm, most commonly referred to as the Logos.

"Logos" is a Greek word with numerous interrelated meanings. Most Bibles translate it as "Word" (as in the preamble to the Gospel of John), but it can also refer to a harmonizing proportion ("ratio" in Latin). It is the root word for "logic" and "logarithm," and its Latin counterpart is the root of the word "rational." The Logos was viewed as the "divine intelligence" that bridged the gap between divinity and the physical world, and was intimately involved in the creation of the Cosmos. In Hellenistic thought, pure Divinity was inherently separate from matter, so a transitional figure was needed to integrate the two realms. In Pythagorean thought, the presence of such a figure was thought to be evident through an integration of sacred geometry, the tonal structure of music, and astronomy/astrology ("the music of the spheres").

The Roman world at that time had a number of different versions of this theology, commonly known as the "Mystery Schools." These "Mystery Schools" re-interpreted different local theologies and mythologies into the structure of their own theology. Usually (but not always) the Logos was cast as a savior god who descended from the heavens, died, and returned to life. Examples include Osiris, Attis, Dionysus, and Inanna. These religions originally had an agricultural and community focus, with the deity's descent, death, resurrection, and ascension representing the seasons of the year, and communal worship aimed at assuring fertility for crops, livestock, and people. The Mystery Schools transformed these religions by changing the focus toward individual salvation and enlightenment.

Dr. Carrier presents evidence that early Christianity was the Jewish version. Some of the evidence he presents was already familiar to me, but he cites some fascinating information from other scholars showing how the Gospels were carefully and ingeniously crafted as meta-parables about Christ, rather than cobbled-together accumulations of oral tradition and legendary embellishment as most New Testament scholars presently maintain. He provides examples of how the stories and miracles were carefully arranged on both sides of a "pivot point" in the narrative, so that stories and miracles on one side mirrored those on the other, to reinforce the theological points the authors were making. One example Carrier gives is where the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 7:14 is cited ("...and she will call him Immanuel"). This is odd from a straightforward perspective, because Mary does not name him Immanuel, and no one else does either. However, the other side of the chiastic structure of the Gospel (Matthew, IIRC) is the point where Jesus, after his resurrection, tells his disciples that he will "be with them" ("Immanuel" = "God with us") unto the end of the age.

In addition, the Gospel stories were crafted precisely to supplant the Hebrew Scriptures, placing Jesus as a superior archetype of Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the Jewish sacrificial system and Temple, etc.. This is in keeping with the Hellenstic world view that was popular at the time. In this world view, things on Earth were imperfect copies of perfect archetypes in the Heavenly realms. This metaphysical viewpoint is spelled out directly in the Book of Hebrews.

So, the ancient Hebrew stories could be seen as shadows of the workings of the celestial Jesus in the Heavenly realm (think: Plato's Cave). This is why, when Paul describes the "biography" of Jesus, he keeps saying "according to the Scriptures" rather than referencing any passed-on traditions about a human Jesus who lived recently on Earth.

In summation then, Carrier argues that Jesus was not a historical figure because the authentic early Epistles speak of a celestial deity, and the ingeniously-engineered structure of the Gospels is evidence of deliberate literary craftsmanship, rather than compilation of oral tradition and legendary embellishment of historical remembrances of a human man.

[Minimalist]

This theory holds that the earliest Christians did not conceive of Christ as a man who had recently walked around in Galilee. Rather, he was a purely celestial deity whom early Christians experienced in visions, mystical revelations (comparable to what we now call "channeling"), and esoteric modes of interpreting the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus was a specific type of divine intermediary between the wholly numinous spiritual realm and the earthly realm, most commonly referred to as the Logos.

Well, LPS, it's your time and you can waste it however you like but this is Drippy you're talking to.

It's like trying to explain electronics to your dog. Except the dog does not a vested interest in denying what you are saying. Drippy - and all the rest - do.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

You know, Mouse, when Tacitus reports that Vespasian performed "healing miracles" I bet drippy is right up there denouncing such superstition.....but his godboy is "different", of course.

[4.81] In the months during which Vespasian was waiting at Alexandria for the periodical return of the summer gales and settled weather at sea, many wonders occurred which seemed to point him out as the object of the favour of heaven and of the partiality of the Gods. One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. This he did by the advice of the God Serapis, whom this nation, devoted as it is to many superstitions, worships more than any other divinity. He begged Vespasian that he would deign to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feet the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them. They persisted; and he, though on the one hand he feared the scandal of a fruitless attempt, yet, on the other, was induced by the entreaties of the men and by the language of his flatterers to hope for success. At last he ordered that the opinion of physicians should be taken, as to whether such blindness and infirmity were within the reach of human skill. They discussed the matter from different points of view. "In the one case," they said, "the faculty of sight was not wholly destroyed, and might return, if the obstacies were removed; in the other case, the limb, which had fallen into a diseased condition, might be restored, if a healing influence were applied; such, perhaps, might be the pleasure of the Gods, and the Emperor might be chosen to be the minister of the divine will; at any rate, all the glory of a successful remedy would be Caesar's, while the ridicule of failure would fall on the sufferers." And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required. The hand was instantly restored to its use, and the light of day again shone upon the blind. Persons actually present attest both facts, even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood.

Tacitus - The Histories

And uses spit one of the same methods attributed to Jesus. The major difference being we know this guy existed.

So far as I can tell the Christians centuries later began claiming the old gods were demons because their priests also performed miracles which had to be explained away. An interesting case of my fraud is legitimate yours is not.

[Minimalist]

To be fair to the early xtians...superstitious twits that they were...they did have examples of men who were fully human and fully divine. The emperors were deified by vote of the senate, after all. How much more godly could anyone get than that?

[A_Nony_Mouse]

To be fair to the early xtians...superstitious twits that they were...they did have examples of men who were fully human and fully divine. The emperors were deified by vote of the senate, after all. How much more godly could anyone get than that?

The first to be deified by the senate was the other JC, dropping the Gaius. I do have the comparison but the xtian JC fits with the Caesar cult and his temples.

[Minimalist]

The first to be deified by the senate was the other JC

...who dies in a most human fashion!

[A_Nony_Mouse]

The first to be deified by the senate was the other JC

...who dies in a most human fashion!

And whose spirit was seen rising to the heavens from his funeral pyre.

[Minimalist]

...who dies in a most human fashion!

And whose spirit was seen rising to the heavens from his funeral pyre.

Yeah..... people claim to see all sorts of crazy shit, eh?

[ThomM]

[quote='Minimalist' pid='435872' dateline='1366820188']
Don't listen, Drippy. Way too long and complicated for your limited attention span. Stick to your silly bible. Its about all you can handle.

in 2000 years what absolute evidence will there be for anyone save a hand full of prominate world leaders?

I am sure this guy's arguement is based on the same idea that all who argue this arguement are bound to. He will have to attack the fact that the romans kept records, and from the secular pov the records kept, Christ is not mentioned in them... So rather than be truthful and say we do not have a complete record of that time. he will harp on the fact that of what we do have, anything that does mention Christ can be dismissed as 'religious nonsense' or he will continue to underline what great record keepers the romans were, but fail to mention 2/3's of what was projected to have been recorded has been lost to time, and what we have left are just incomplete one off fragments. (Meaning one of a kind not something that has been repeated or copied/no verification)
Not to mention I am sure he will omit the fact that the oldest most complete writting we have of that period is the bible. Rather he will have to focous on the pieced together fragments and projections one has avaiable to any of us 2000 years after the fact.


So again.. Meh..


Well - as far as the bible - is is NOT the oldest nor the most complete writing we have of ANY period - that can be proven. With the exception of a few writings of paul - WE have no idea who actually wrote the bible - we don't actually know when most of it was written - and we do not even know if the writers MEANT it to be taken literally. It is most certainly NOT eye witness testimony - if the events even happened at all.

However - one forgets that the time of the christ is also the GOLDEN age of Rome = a very well documented time. WE have millions of writings from that time - in museums and Universities around the world - as well as in stone in monuments and building from that time. WE have results of Tortoise races in Rome - and even documentation of a number of claimed messiahs - of course none of them are the "christ".

And while YOU are correct - that we do not have a complete documentation of that time - that is hardly a reason to accept the claims about the christ - when many points in the story directly contradict the Law of Rome - the Laws of the Jewish religions - and lots of other real contradictions - from the bible FAIRY TALES.

The biggest problem is that the story of the christ itself FAILS to agree with the prophecies of the messiah themselves. THe messiah was supposed to be a MAN (not a god) - of the MALE bloodline of David (Women were not considered to be involved then) - He was supposed to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem for the third time (IT had not been destroyed at that time yet) - and was to bring ALL people of the world together under the JEWISH religion and have all of them accept the Jewish religion as the one and only - and have them admit their prior religion was false.

The jews would have known that the christ COULD NOT BE the messiah - simply on the basis of the inability to fulfill the prophecy of the temple - and would NOT have allowed him to teach at a jewish temple - as a heretic. (HE likely would have been STONED TO DEATH - for saying that god's CHANGES his word)

THe claim of a NEW COVENANT is inherently against the claim of the religions as the god being all knowing. Why would an ALL KNOWING GOD - make a covenant - that he would change later - - you can hardly claim that circumstances changed - he would know that too.

However - once you accept that the stories of the Old Testament are MYTH and LEGEND(and it is clear that the story of adam and eve is MYTH) - and actually incorrect on many things - there occurs NO reason for the christ as well. And that is where the bible makes a MAJOR mistake - In 1 Timothy 2.- the "christ" uses a MYTH as a reason to hold women in low regard. (It was EVE who was the sinner)

Now - add in others - like in Matthew and Luke - the story of the christ in the desert - Where it is said that the devil took the christ to a high place from which he could see ALL THE KINGDOMS of the world. IF the christ is god - then he KNOWS that the earth is a sphere - and that he could not see ALL the kingdoms mentioned in the bible - from a single high place on earth - much less all of the actual kingdoms that existed at that time.

And this story is one that you have to really look at.

IF this happened in the Desert - the ONLY two who were supposedly there were the christ - and the devil. So - there are only TWO possible sources of the story that "were there" and could tell it. SO - either the story came from the christ - and the christ deliberately LIED about it - or it came from the Devil - an interesting source of the bible! Of course - it is most likely that this is just another LIE of Matthew.