Humans in S America 22000 Years Ago?

[Anomalocaris]

It's actually a tough number to pin down and depends upon the genetics of the people involved. Better distribution- less people required. We got interested in it again as we considered "space colonies".

On a related note, taking the american indians and their genetics into account - some reserachers have suggested that it could have been as low as 70 in their case..
http://www.livescience.com/289-north-ame...ludes.html

It makes more sense to ship large consignment of frozen eggs and sperms, or embryos, along with very few live astronauts to the space colonie to ensure proper genetic variation in the next generation, rather than laboriously shipping large numbers of hungry, oxygen and water consuming, disease carrying breeding pairs to do the same.

[The Grand Nudger]

I know right, or just not to send people at all. Do we really want treat the rest of the universe to the current state of human development..hehehe, I say we send plants and bacteria - they'll make for a better impression.

"Oh look, those fleshy things sent us peaceful and useful flowers, how thoughtful of them - I thought for a moment they would show up at our doorstep ragged, demanding food and shelter"

[Anomalocaris]

Marsupials took the same trip in the reverse (though we don't imagine they went by water).

did they? I had no idea there were marsupials in Africa.

But anyway, marsupial as a lineage considerably predated the time when rifting that separated Africa and South America was complete. So it seems conceivable their ancesters simply walked on dry land across the future mid-atlantic ridge before the water came in.

Last common ancester between old and new world monkeys post dated the final split between africa and South America by some margin. To get across they must have swam, rafted, or walked on water.

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I know right, or just not to send people at all. Do we really want treat the rest of the universe to the current state of human development..hehehe, I say we send plants and bacteria - they'll make for a better impression.

"Oh look, those fleshy things sent us peaceful and useful flowers, how thoughtful of them - I thought for a moment they would show up at our doorstep ragged, demanding food and shelter"

Some alien must be making a horror movie right now, involving a humans space ship landing on their planet and unleashing loads of creepy, round, fleshy, translucent balls that eats little tadpole like wiggly things and turn into four limbed, squaking monsters.

[The Grand Nudger]

did they? I had no idea there were marsupials in Africa.

But anyway, marsupial as a lineage considerably predated the time when rifting that separated Africa and South America was complete. So it seems conceivable their ancesters simply walked on dry land across the future mid-atlantic ridge before the water came in.

Last common ancester between old and new world monkeys post dated the final split between africa and South America by some margin. To get across they must have swam, rafted, or walked on water.

Yeah, africa, europe, asia, s. america.....but amusingly, they appear to have first arisen in n. america, then beginning their journey to every inhabitable rock by the eocene (via antarctica, so it would seem) reaching australia by the oligocene, before being isolated in the miocene.

Little bastards where on the move, eh?

Speaking of their trip, the origin of new world monkeys actually does fall within the range of the antarctic route being open and it is offered as an alternative to listlessly floating. Mammals have to eat and drink pretty frequently. Even mice starve crossing the atlantic on ships when they don't have access to sufficient food and freshwater. If, and this is a big if, human remains are pushed back into this window it offers us a coastal trip by foot or by sea, rather than a deep blue hardcore ocean crossing adventure from either the north -or- the south. Not that we couldn't have done it, just saying. Trouble is, existent genetics describes a southward population, not a northward thrust. So, marsupials and monkeys could have and likely did make use of it, but for people, the bridge is DOA as a point of crossing, in all likelihood. It's the same problem for the solutrean hyp - except that the sol explanation has some tools associated with it. Ultimately, we'd need to find populations of people either way which we haven't yet found - though the folks who present this sort of stuff have a good idea of where to look (and like min said, it's expensive).

[A_Nony_Mouse]

This is a quick and dirty map I made coloring the water green to a depth about that of the lower sea level during the last ice age. Note the South China sea and such.

[Minimalist]

Old world monkeys did it. Enough old world monkeys accidentally floated to south america betweeen 25-40 million years ago such that they founded the lineage of new world monkeys.

The old "vegetation mat" theory? Yeah... funny how these vegetation mats are no longer apparent...just like biblical "miracles."

[Anomalocaris]

If it makes you feel better, let's say they swam or walked on water. Those would scenarios comfortably easy to distinguish even from biblical miracles.

[Minimalist]

How about a fucking Ark?

[Anomalocaris]

This is a quick and dirty map I made coloring the water green to a depth about that of the lower sea level during the last ice age. Note the South China sea and such.

A quick and dirty map of the sea floor around indonesia is liable to overlook the Wallace line, which runs through a narrow 7 mile channel between island of java to the east, and the islands of lesser Sunda to the west. Nesa Tengara lies on the lesser Sunda islands.

The Wallace line lies exactly on the border between the Asian tectonic plate carrying java to the north and east, and the indo-australian tectonic plate carrying Nesa Tengara to the west. Despite the narrowness of the strait separating these two islands, and the fact their climates are almost exactly the same, the flora and fauna to the west of Wallace line is similar to the flora and fauna of mainland Asia. The flora and fauna to the east of Wallace line is similar to those of Papua New Gunie and Australia, which are often evolutionarily far removed from the flora and fauna of Asia.

This fact, and the fact the line happen to trace a deep seated geological divide in the crust of the earth, has caused many people to assume the lands on either side of Wallace line has in fact never, ever been directly linked. But homo erectus definitely made it past the Wallace line, and hence, it is assumed, they either swam or built boats.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

[quote='A_Nony_Mouse' pid='444738' dateline='1368490198']
This is a quick and dirty map I made coloring the water green to a depth about that of the lower sea level during the last ice age. Note the South China sea and such.
...

A quick and dirty map of the sea floor around indonesia is liable to overlook the Wallace line, which runs through a narrow 7 mile strait between island of java to the east, and the islands of lesser Sunda to the west. Nesa Tengara lies on the lesser Sunda islands.

The importance of Wallace line is lies exactly on the border between the Asian tectonic plate carrying java to the north and east, and the indo-australian tectonic plate carrying Nesa Tengara to the west. Despite the narrowness of the strait separating these two islands, and the fact their climates are almost exactly the same, the native flora and fauna on either side of Wallace line are fundamentally different. The flora and fauna to the west of Wallace line is similar to the flora and fauna of mainland Asia. The flora and fauna to the east of Wallace line is similar to those of Papua New Gunie and Australia, which are often evolutionarily far removed from the flora and fauna of Asia.

This fact, and the fact the line happen to trace a deep seated geological divide in the crust of the earth, has caused many people to assume the lands on either side of Wallace line has in fact never, ever been directly linked.

I am not claiming it was walking all the way. The last gap to get to Australia was clearly a big stretch of water without considering any other gaps. My point is it does not take much in sea-faring or even rafting technology to spread across the Pacific Islands. One can also consider how the islanders learned to sail across hundreds even thousands of miles of open water. Slowly over centuries as the water appeared and the distances slowly increased and methods slowly improved.

On another subject the route out of Africa was to the south of the Red Sea not the north. And the sea might not have even existed.