Pleasure and Joy

[Harris]

Do you know what the hypothalamus is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamus

Have you ever heard of peptide chains?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide

Ah...the false certitude of scientism.

Hello ChadWooters,

Thank you for the links.

I am not against science. I don’t deny the prominence of science but argue that science has not come to the stage where it can define self-consciousness.

[genkaus]

I am not against science. I don’t deny the prominence of science but argue that science has not come to the stage where it can define self-consciousness.

You are wrong. It has.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl...-1,00.html

[paulpablo]

You believe in the quran when it speaks of sticks turning into snakes but you seem to have trouble admitting the quran says that you are superior to me. This is why I think you're being deceptive
The quran.

"O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

Harris

Yes, all Biblical prophets are holy for me.

Paulpablo

I don't follow jesus, he probably either didn't exist or he was a religious conman, fuck jesus and all the other prophets

If you observe the evidence you have been presented it is obvious the quran says that you are superior to me, it's in black and white clear as crystal.

The only reason you have to not believe I am inferior is because you have said you don't know for certain if I am a true disbeliever despite me telling you I definitely am.

So do not weaken and do not grieve, and you will be superior if you are [true] believers.

True believers are superior

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Non muslims need to pay tax in acknowledgement of the superiority of Muslims.

He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and Islam, that He may make it (Islam) superior over all religions. And All-Sufficient is Allah as a Witness.

Islam is superior over all religions.

The fact you say any ideology that makes it's followers feel superior to others is a cause of human suffering and after reading these clear simple verses (blatantly saying Islam is superior and believers are superior) and then deny Islam says that it is superior or that it makes it's believers feel superior is ridiculous, it makes me think you aren't being truthful.

[Neo-Scholastic]

...science has not come to the stage where it can define self-consciousness.

You are wrong. It has.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl...-1,00.html

Sorry genkaus. I didn't have time right now to read all the way through Pinker's article, though I will if you truly think it adds something novel to the mind-brain question.
Both you and I recognize that science is not practiced in a philosophical vacuum. Are you certain that he has addressed the the issues of intentionality and qualia?

[genkaus]

Sorry genkaus. I didn't have time right now to read all the way through Pinker's article, though I will if you truly think it adds something novel to the mind-brain question.
Both you and I recognize that science is not practiced in a philosophical vacuum. Are you certain that he has addressed the the issues of intentionality and qualia?

The question you ask here and the statement made by Harris are two different things. Harris' statement was regarding self-consciousness, something that the scientific article does address and define and neither intentionality nor qualia is necessary to the issue.

However, the article did give me new insight regarding the issue of qualia. Simply put, "experience is awareness of awareness". See if you can puzzle this one out.

[Harris]

You believe in the quran when it speaks of sticks turning into snakes but you seem to have trouble admitting the quran says that you are superior to me....

See Paulpablo!

I am not fighting with you and don’t want to. You are welcome to agree or disagree with my views. Its your choice.

I don’t feel myself superior or inferior in any sense. I am a normal person who has no problem to have a meal together with theist or atheist, scholar or layman, rich or poor, young or old, black or white without any discrimination.

However, it seems you are ambitious to put your thoughts into my mouth. Your arguments are indicating that perhaps you are in fact having superiority or inferiority complex (I am sorry if I am mistaken).

I praise Quran with highest words of respect. I count it to be the SUPERIOR MOST SCRIPTURE over all scriptures and books of the world. I literally count it to be a MIRACLE. I came to this opinion after I have studied Quran in little depth. My opinion has nothing to do with Blind Faith.

If you are troubled with this assertion then you have your choice. Prove Quran is false by using methods of science, Logic, and rationale. What you are thinking about me or what I am thinking about you is not important here.

Let me simplify your task. You just show the world that Quran has:

1. Discrepancies
2. Contradictions
3. Scientific errors and
4. mathematical errors

This way you will refute the claim what Quran made in:

Al Hijr (15), -Verse 9-
An Nisaa (4) -Verse 82-

I assume you are a learned person and I expect to have a literary dialog with you rather receiving adamant responses similar to what a stubborn little girl might give.

---

I am not against science. I don’t deny the prominence of science but argue that science has not come to the stage where it can define self-consciousness.

You are wrong. It has.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl...-1,00.html

Hello genkaus,

Thank you for pointing towards Pinker’s article. Although the article has contradictions within its context, yet it is an enlightening article.

Your comments, in fact excited me, but after reading the article, I only got disappointment.

The article is speculative in nature especially where Pinker discussed on “TACKLING THE HARD PROBLEM”

Look what he wrote:

“No one knows what to do with the Hard Problem. Some people may see it as an opening to sneak the soul back in, but this just re-labels the mystery of "consciousness" as the mystery of "the soul"--a word game that provides no insight…

…Whatever the solutions to the Easy and Hard problems turn out to be, few scientists doubt that they will locate consciousness in the activity of the brain.”

So unfortunately, science only has speculations and it has not even scratched the surface of Self-Consciousness/Soul.

[genkaus]

I praise Quran with highest words of respect. I count it to be the SUPERIOR MOST SCRIPTURE over all scriptures and books of the world. I literally count it to be a MIRACLE. I came to this opinion after I have studied Quran in little depth. My opinion has nothing to do with Blind Faith.

Your opinion IS blind faith. And you can't see that.

If you are troubled with this assertion then you have your choice. Prove Quran is false by using methods of science, Logic, and rationale. What you are thinking about me or what I am thinking about you is not important here.

Let me simplify your task. You just show the world that Quran has:

1. Discrepancies
2. Contradictions
3. Scientific errors and
4. mathematical errors

It as already been done. To death.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions...e_Qur%27an

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Err...e_Qur%27an

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/..._name.html

Your opinions are blind faith because you refuse to see this.

Thank you for pointing towards Pinker’s article. Although the article has contradictions within its context, yet it is an enlightening article.

Your comments, in fact excited me, but after reading the article, I only got disappointment.

That's probably because you didn't understand what they were talking about.

The article is speculative in nature especially where Pinker discussed on “TACKLING THE HARD PROBLEM”

Look what he wrote:

“No one knows what to do with the Hard Problem. [i]Some people may see it as an opening to sneak the soul back in, but this just re-labels the mystery of "consciousness" as the mystery of "the soul"--a word game that provides no insight…

…Whatever the solutions to the Easy and Hard problems turn out to be, few scientists doubt that they will locate consciousness in the activity of the brain.”[/i]

So unfortunately, science only has speculations and it has not even scratched the surface of Self-Consciousness/Soul.

How predictable.

Pinker predicted that your kind would consider hard problem to be an opportunity to sneak back the soul - and that's precisely the first hing you try to do.

You also ignored the very next paragraph, where he questions the very foundation of the hard problem.

As for the article being speculative - the mountain of evidence provided within it is anything but speculative.

[paulpablo]

Harris the quran says that believers are superior to non believers, you are a believer I am a non believer.
You obviously don't believe the quran is truthful if you don't believe you are superior to me, it's as simple as that.
I'm not putting words into your mouth I'm showing you the words within the quran.
The quran says islam is superior and believers are superior to non believers.

But well done for noticing that you aren't superior because you're a muslim, and for noticing that the quran is wrong, it's just a shame that the quran is the basis of a lot of human suffering in the world because of the thousands of muslims who believe they are superior to people who have different beliefs.

The claim of the quran is that the first man (adam) was made from dust, then allah said "be" to him, and he was, I don't know why allah had to say the words "be" but he must have just felt like it.

This goes against what the majority of the worlds biologists say happened.

[Harris]

Your opinion IS blind faith. And you can't see that.

Well! Its your opinion. I respect that.

It as already been done. To death.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions...e_Qur%27an
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Err...e_Qur%27an
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/..._name.html

Your opinions are blind faith because you refuse to see this.

Good Job.
I like your style of refutation. At least you are giving supporting material with your arguments.

I know all these and other similar allegations by heart. For you these allegations maybe a rocket science but for me these are no more than a schoolboy’s joke. Pick couple of most prominent contradictions and give me so I will refute them right here in this forum.

You say I have a blind faith but you are demonstrating it is in fact you who have blind faith in such allegations as you don’t even bother to verify whether those allegations are correct or not.

Let me inform you it is Dr. William Campbell (a doctor and Christian missionary) who originated most of those allegations. He lived and worked in Morocco and Tunisia for long time and knows fluent Arabic.

I recommend you to have a look on the work of Jochen Katz as well

http://www.answering-islam.org

You may find some good evidences against Quran from there as well.

Anyway, I am waiting to see few of your most favourite allegations


Simply, remember if someday someone finds some really authentic contradiction or discrepancy in Quran CNN and BBC would be the first to give a shout on that. It would be the biggest news in the world.

That's probably because you didn't understand what they were talking about.

Well! When I wrote:

“…science has not come to the stage where it can define self-consciousness.”

You wrote

“You are wrong. It has.”

Means we are talking about Hard Verifiable Evidences.

After I checked the article, I did not find any scientific evidence on the discovery of consciousness.

First part of the article mostly talked about how brain is functioning. In the second part, especially in HARD PROBLEM the author is giving clear signals that there are no scientific proofs on the discovery of Consciousness and indeed, there are no hard evidences in the article that can be verified by other scientists. The article is speculative in nature.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

We have senses of pain and pleasure yet we don’t know exactly what they are. We don’t like pain and we like pleasure that’s all we know. Science is so feeble that it can’t even give explanation to our different feelings like what is love and what is hate. Although every one of us experiencing in our daily lives the pleasure of love yet there is no tool that can prove scientifically what is love. If you say, “I love you” and your listener response “prove it” that makes you hang in the middle of air as you don’t know what to do next because you are a believer of science and science has no tools to help you out in this case.

I'm completely fed up with this childish kark that love is some mysterious, undefinable something.

Love is the subjective condition that exists when another person's happiness is essential to your own. This definition is not original with me (bonus points and an onion milkshake for the first person to source it correctly), but it seems unarguable. If you are indifferent to someone else's happiness, you can't claim to 'love' them, I think. Similarly, it seems perverse in the extreme to claim that you don't love someone when their happiness is a vital component of your own.

Boru