Morality in dogs? Morality Learned?

[The Reality Salesman01]

but I believe this comes more from the pack mentality and enhanced by domestication...We need to remember those who came before us and domesticated the dog selected for these traits, thus we continue to enhance and strengthen pleasing traits in the dog. What I find most interesting about dogs is the variety and not just physically but mentally as well

Ding ding ding! A well put argument for how a species can adapt and form morality. "Morality" is an evolved trait developed from variation. Now...apply that to something else, and remove it from any future Moral Arguments for God please!

I know of no other species that varies as much and yet can still breed.

yes you do.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think this is misguided. For example ants, because they don't have the same level of abstraction that we have, can be considered wholly robotic in their behavior when they go out of their way to rescue other ants (yes, they have evolved rescuers), but do these rescue ants just follow an instinctual pattern, or do they really have a concern for the ants they're rescuing?

Just as curiously....do we? Is there a distinction between instinctual patterns and concern? If so, where does that lie. Is it in the volume or the depth of it's outward expression? If so, aren't we just frequently instinctual, or hyper instinctual - relative to ants, in this regard (sometimes...lol)?

[Godscreated]

but I believe this comes more from the pack mentality and enhanced by domestication...We need to remember those who came before us and domesticated the dog selected for these traits, thus we continue to enhance and strengthen pleasing traits in the dog. What I find most interesting about dogs is the variety and not just physically but mentally as well

Ding ding ding! A well put argument for how a species can adapt and form morality. "Morality" is an evolved trait developed from variation. Now...apply that to something else, and remove it from any future Moral Arguments for God please!

I was waiting on this, I knew someone would jump on it. I never said a dog understands morality and without understanding there is no morality, it's instinct. The dog did not select for these traits man did, man found in the instinct of dogs what pleased him and breed for them and enhanced them. Wild dogs from around the world show no true moral aspects in their daily behavior, everything they do can be understood as survival of the species, not pushing the species into a direction of morality. Actually what I see in dogs is this, morality would be a detriment to the survival of the pack, morality would allow weak links into the pack and eventually destroy the social network that has gotten them this far with little change in them for thousands of years. Evolution has nothing to do with what I purposed, not in any way.

I know of no other species that varies as much and yet can still breed.

yes you do.
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I do? Not sure what you mean.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Lol, it's okay bud. I expected you to reject this concept. I was referring to US!!

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Just google the words, in any order: traits, develop, variation, time...see if evolution pops up.

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All words that can be found in your post about dogs, if I recall. I didn't double check before typing this so forgive me if I put words in your mouth.

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By the way...throw Darwin in that search bar with those other words and you may find them all in the same sentence...along with a mystery E word.

[Godscreated]

Lol, it's okay bud. I expected you to reject this concept. I was referring to US!!

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Just google the words, in any order: traits, develop, variation, time...see if evolution pops up.

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All words that can be found in your post about dogs, if I recall. I didn't double check before typing this so forgive me if I put words in your mouth.

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By the way...throw Darwin in that search bar with those other words and you may find them all in the same sentence...along with a mystery E word.

You believe in evolution if you so desire, doesn't prove anything, animals have no real morals out side of survival and it's all instinct. If yo are not smart enough to see this it's not my fault. I gave an explanation in my previous post, all you could do was bla, bla, bla...

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, the crux of it, GC, is that human beings -are- animals. Whether or not any other animal has an experience that includes something that we would call morality is very difficult to establish -if only because of the communication barrier. That some animals do express behaviours we would call "moral behavior" - and that it seems to fall along a line of circumstances similar to our own - and given our shared heritage...we have good reason to suspect that there may, at least, be a "moral spark" in animals other than ourselves.

Now, as to what is survival and instinct....morality isn't somehow separated from either of these things no matter what animal we care to reference - a human being or a dog.

[Sal]

I think this is misguided. For example ants, because they don't have the same level of abstraction that we have, can be considered wholly robotic in their behavior when they go out of their way to rescue other ants (yes, they have evolved rescuers), but do these rescue ants just follow an instinctual pattern, or do they really have a concern for the ants they're rescuing?

Just as curiously....do we? Is there a distinction between instinctual patterns and concern? If so, where does that lie. Is it in the volume or the depth of it's outward expression? If so, aren't we just frequently instinctual, or hyper instinctual - relative to ants, in this regard (sometimes...lol)?

I do not know. I reckon we give ourselves an undue position of superiority or specialness apart from the rest of the animal kingdom because we're able to have a level of abstraction seemingly not present in other animals.