Argument from evil, restated

[Undeceived]

Delighted to meet you, Zarith.

If the ability to choose is so important, why then do I end up in a place where I have no choice, if I make the right choice the first time? Free will is the most important thing ... but only up to a point?

Before we enter heaven, we willingly ask God to make us righteous-- to put to death our sinful self. God cannot remove the impure part of us unless we first ask Him to. Suppose you're a brilliant sculptor who makes living clay people. You give them the desire for food, called hunger. But they are clay, they do not need food. Nevertheless, some choose to eat for pleasure. Others tell you, "Take this craving from us!" If you sever their hunger instinct, are you violating their free will?

If god desires for people to choose to love him, then why is there an expiration date on this offer? Surely if hell existed, it would be filled with people who would make a different choice if given one more chance. Don't you think?

Yes, they'd want to be in heaven. But they'd choose heaven for pleasure, not for God. Desiring something, no matter how much, cannot persuade you to love somebody. If a millionaire told you, "Love me and I'll give you a car," could you do it? You might love the car, but not the man. It is impossible to love someone who is a means (of instrumental value) and not an end (destination). If God is not an end in your life right now, the offer of a different end won't change anything. God said, "Have no other gods before me." If you value heaven above God, you cannot inherit heaven.

If this topic still interests you, read Luke 16:19–31:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NLT

[Godscreated]

Man you are really mixed up when it comes to what the scriptures teach, just the basic teachings of scripture negate everything you said, o before you make such incorrect assumptions go study scripture.

Welcome to the forum Zarith, welcome.

Thanks for the welcome.

Do you think you could uh ... vague it up a bit more for me?

Sorry I should have explained, I've gone through these things so many times with others here I forget some do not really know what scriptures say even at there basic. I see Undeceived has help with answers, he does excellent at giving answers.

[Brakeman]

Delighted to meet you, Zarith.

If god desires for people to choose to love him, then why is there an expiration date on this offer? Surely if hell existed, it would be filled with people who would make a different choice if given one more chance. Don't you think?

Yes, they'd want to be in heaven. But they'd choose heaven for pleasure, not for God. Desiring something, no matter how much, cannot persuade you to love somebody. If a millionaire told you, "Love me and I'll give you a car," could you do it? You might love the car, but not the man. It is impossible to love someone who is a means (of instrumental value) and not an end (destination). If God is not an end in your life right now, the offer of a different end won't change anything. God said, "Have no other gods before me." If you value heaven above God, you cannot inherit heaven.

That's a doosie of a theist response! I'm going to save that one.

So according to your theory, the threat of hell doesn't unduly influence you while you are alive, but after your heart beats the last time, boom! Hell is suddenly too real to allow you to love.

So If I tell a girl on the street to love me or else I will put her in my basement and burn her with matches, she might actually love me, but once I get her down there and strapped down, she's just saying that she loves me to avoid the pain. OK.. Nothing creepy about that..

God is the millionaire who says "love me and I'll give you a car" (heaven). But you have to agree to love him before you get to see the car. Why does the sight of the car or the sight (via death) of the punishment (Hell) matter with the promise (threat)?

[Undeceived]

So according to your theory, the threat of hell doesn't unduly influence you while you are alive, but after your heart beats the last time, boom! Hell is suddenly too real to allow you to love.

So If I tell a girl on the street to love me or else I will put her in my basement and burn her with matches, she might actually love me, but once I get her down there and strapped down, she's just saying that she loves me to avoid the pain. OK.. Nothing creepy about that..

God is the millionaire who says "love me and I'll give you a car" (heaven). But you have to agree to love him before you get to see the car. Why does the sight of the car or the sight (via death) of the punishment (Hell) matter with the promise (threat)?

Thanks for seeing my point. The girl won't love her kidnapper, and you won't love the millionaire. Likewise, people won't love God even if they are given a second chance or offered a reward. They must see their need for a savior, and humbly ask Him for life. Humbleness is a requirement for heaven. Humbleness cannot be manipulated by human desire.

[Zarith]

Sorry I should have explained, I've gone through these things so many times with others here I forget some do not really know what scriptures say even at there basic. I see Undeceived has help with answers, he does excellent at giving answers.

"Gee, sorry for calling you confused/ignorant and referring the problem somewhere else, I forgot that I really do believe you are confused/ignorant, and please see this other source for more information."

---

Delighted to meet you, Zarith.

If the ability to choose is so important, why then do I end up in a place where I have no choice, if I make the right choice the first time? Free will is the most important thing ... but only up to a point?

Before we enter heaven, we willingly ask God to make us righteous-- to put to death our sinful self. God cannot remove the impure part of us unless we first ask Him to. Suppose you're a brilliant sculptor who makes living clay people. You give them the desire for food, called hunger. But they are clay, they do not need food. Nevertheless, some choose to eat for pleasure. Others tell you, "Take this craving from us!" If you sever their hunger instinct, are you violating their free will?

If god desires for people to choose to love him, then why is there an expiration date on this offer? Surely if hell existed, it would be filled with people who would make a different choice if given one more chance. Don't you think?

Yes, they'd want to be in heaven. But they'd choose heaven for pleasure, not for God. Desiring something, no matter how much, cannot persuade you to love somebody. If a millionaire told you, "Love me and I'll give you a car," could you do it? You might love the car, but not the man. It is impossible to love someone who is a means (of instrumental value) and not an end (destination). If God is not an end in your life right now, the offer of a different end won't change anything. God said, "Have no other gods before me." If you value heaven above God, you cannot inherit heaven.

If this topic still interests you, read Luke 16:19–31:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NLT

Thanks for taking the time to write up an actual response, and nice to meet you too.

The statue analogy is an interesting one, so let's run with it. You mention the creator giving the statues "hunger", which I understand as corresponding to the impulse to sin, but this is a bit of a clever word game isn't it? After all, how could we fault a creator for making creations that "hunger"? This seems like a fairly innocuous design choice, especially given how eating (when done properly) can be both enjoyable and morally good.

So let's call it like it is, and state that the creator makes statues that have the impulse to lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, torture, and whatever other horrible thing we can think of.

This alone ought to be enough to give anybody pause. And it does, which is why I believe we have a convoluted narrative involving a talking snake, a tree, and fresh fruit that essentially distracts from the question of "where does evil come from in the first place?"

But it continues. Some of the statues will be informed that in order to rid themselves of these impulses, they need only to ask. Fair enough, except for all the statues who aren't told, and in fact don't actually know that there exists someone to whom they need to make this request, or worse, believe in the existence of an entity OTHER than the one that made them. Because that serves some sort of purpose in the overall scheme of things.

Then of the statues that make this request, some will make it and claim that it has been granted, while continuing to do bad things.

Others will make the request and it won't be granted, and they will be told that this is because they did not ask in the right way, were not sincere about it, or whatever.

Then of course, for all of the statues that fail for any reason to make this request or make it properly, they will all be consigned to eternal firing in the kiln.

All of this is necessary because it is of the utmost importance that these statues be able to choose to make such a request.

This seems a bit much, doesn't it? And of course in the verses you referenced, there is a bit of schadenfreude in Abraham and Lazarus showing up, isn't there? Passages like this are part of the reason I can't believe in any system that includes the idea of eternal punishment. This is bronze age superstition, and it's been carried over into modern times, and it's deeply immoral.

Of course, I'm told that I'm not allowed to judge this state of affairs using the same moral compass that I have supposedly been given, which is yet another mark against it in my eyes.

Then of course there is the issue of, if heaven and hell aren't supposed to influence our decision, then why are people informed of their existence? Seems to me they were invented with the express reason of influencing people's choices.

Finally, I would note on a somewhat separate topic that I find the very last verse you referenced interesting, in light of the gospel. If this verse is true, what would be the point in spreading the "good news"? It would seem to imply that no non-Jew could possibly avail themselves of this new information.

[whatever76]

Delighted to meet you, Zarith.

If the ability to choose is so important, why then do I end up in a place where I have no choice, if I make the right choice the first time? Free will is the most important thing ... but only up to a point?

Before we enter heaven, we willingly ask God to make us righteous-- to put to death our sinful self. God cannot remove the impure part of us unless we first ask Him to. Suppose you're a brilliant sculptor who makes living clay people. You give them the desire for food, called hunger. But they are clay, they do not need food. Nevertheless, some choose to eat for pleasure. Others tell you, "Take this craving from us!" If you sever their hunger instinct, are you violating their free will?

I think you avoid the question Zarith is asking. Why have an impure part to remove in the first place? Why give us the option? It's like if you built a car without wheels and then blamed the car for not making the right choice to have wheels. Or to use your analogy, why create clay people who hunger but do not need food to live?

Or to get right down to it, why create a paradise for your creatures and then offer a means to violate their right to live there? Or if there is an option, why not create your people so they cannot be deceived by snakes?
Or why not let their children back in since they were innocent of making the choice?

If god desires for people to choose to love him, then why is there an expiration date on this offer? Surely if hell existed, it would be filled with people who would make a different choice if given one more chance. Don't you think?

Yes, they'd want to be in heaven. But they'd choose heaven for pleasure, not for God. Desiring something, no matter how much, cannot persuade you to love somebody. If a millionaire told you, "Love me and I'll give you a car," could you do it? You might love the car, but not the man. It is impossible to love someone who is a means (of instrumental value) and not an end (destination). If God is not an end in your life right now, the offer of a different end won't change anything. God said, "Have no other gods before me." If you value heaven above God, you cannot inherit heaven.

If this topic still interests you, read Luke 16:19–31:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NLT

If so, then why even bring up heaven or hell? Why tell the story of what happens to people who have everything they wanted and didn't help others if not to play upon their desires and fears?

You would be hard pressed to prove to me that what you believe is not out of fear of what will happen to you if you don't. A religion where everyone got into heaven no matter what they believed or did wouldn't have much influence, now would it? Fear is a requirement.

[Godscreated]

Yes, they'd want to be in heaven. But they'd choose heaven for pleasure, not for God. Desiring something, no matter how much, cannot persuade you to love somebody. If a millionaire told you, "Love me and I'll give you a car," could you do it? You might love the car, but not the man. It is impossible to love someone who is a means (of instrumental value) and not an end (destination). If God is not an end in your life right now, the offer of a different end won't change anything. God said, "Have no other gods before me." If you value heaven above God, you cannot inherit heaven.

If this topic still interests you, read Luke 16:19–31:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NLT

If so, then why even bring up heaven or hell? Why tell the story of what happens to people who have everything they wanted and didn't help others if not to play upon their desires and fears?

You would be hard pressed to prove to me that what you believe is not out of fear of what will happen to you if you don't. A religion where everyone got into heaven no matter what they believed or did wouldn't have much influence, now would it? Fear is a requirement.

Fear is not a requirement, where did you get such an idea, I know it did not come from the scriptures. Fear can be a cause, but never a requirement.

[ronedee]

God created a world where both evil and free will supposedly exist. The typical "free will defense" maintains that the existence of free will is super important, more important even than the non-existence or eradication of evil.

As I see it, God is God, and takes full responsibility for His creation. He lets evil exist because it ultimately Glorifies Him! "Free-will" was/is necessary in order for God to create "humans", instead of "robots".

Yet I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that there can be no evil in heaven, thus there can be no free will there. If free will did exist in heaven, how would it not just be earth 2.0?

You are wrong. In Heaven we will be "like" God! We will share in His divinity! Jesus says not to even try to imagine what it will be like there...because we haven't the brain power!

So which is it? Which place is a more desirable place to be, and why do we have both of them when one of them has to be better than the other? Why should I want to go to heaven if this world is better, by virtue of containing free will in addition to evil?

see above

If the ability to choose is so important, why then do I end up in a place where I have no choice, if I make the right choice the first time? Free will is the most important thing ... but only up to a point?

If god desires for people to choose to love him, then why is there an expiration date on this offer? Surely if hell existed, it would be filled with people who would make a different choice if given one more chance. Don't you think?

Why would a just and loving god, seeing his creations burn in hellfire, and desiring that they would have chosen to love him, not avail himself of this opportunity?

You are comparing God to what you know...which is nothing remotely close to truth!

God loves us, and wants to give us what is His! But we need to earn that right through Faith in His Son, and His plan.

Lucifer wanted what was God's with no rights to it. That was the beginning of evil. God used Lucifer, and "the lie" (we could be like God) for His purpose to create Good from it. The "lie" would in the end be true, but by different means.

We are free to chose between Heaven and Hell. And it's what we wanted! Any other way would be God serving man!

Jesus said that after His death, God the Father, through the Holy Spirit would write the Truth in the hearts of all men! So, the answer is within. Some find it. Some suppress it. Some deny it.

We have to shed the worldly flesh and sin, to reach heaven! The only way is "to be born again, through water and the spirit". Making a physical departure (washing) from the old ways, and a new birth (spiritual evolution) to God's true form.

We can share in God's Divinity. But, we need to Love Him, and have Faith that He loves us. Be like His Son Jesus here. Be like God in Heaven! Amen!
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[Brakeman]

..
God is the millionaire who says "love me and I'll give you a car" (heaven). But you have to agree to love him before you get to see the car. Why does the sight of the car or the sight (via death) of the punishment (Hell) matter with the promise (threat)?

Thanks for seeing my point. The girl won't love her kidnapper, and you won't love the millionaire. Likewise, people won't love God even if they are given a second chance or offered a reward. They must see their need for a savior, and humbly ask Him for life. Humbleness is a requirement for heaven. Humbleness cannot be manipulated by human desire.
[/quote]
No, I don't "get" your addled "point." The title "savior" that you attach to your jesus fellow implicitly means that christians love him because he is to save them from a torture that he has created for them. A girl on the street does not love a person that threatens her even is she hasn't seen the basement torture chamber yet. The christian "love" for jesus is totally a psychotic Stockholm syndrome effect. It is a gushing of relief that "the bad man won't hurt her" type of emotion. It is not real love.

[Zarith]

You are comparing God to what you know...which is nothing remotely close to truth!

God loves us, and wants to give us what is His! But we need to earn that right through Faith in His Son, and His plan.

Lucifer wanted what was God's with no rights to it. That was the beginning of evil. God used Lucifer, and "the lie" (we could be like God) for His purpose to create Good from it. The "lie" would in the end be true, but by different means.

We are free to chose between Heaven and Hell. And it's what we wanted! Any other way would be God serving man!

Jesus said that after His death, God the Father, through the Holy Spirit would write the Truth in the hearts of all men! So, the answer is within. Some find it. Some suppress it. Some deny it.

We have to shed the worldly flesh and sin, to reach heaven! The only way is "to be born again, through water and the spirit". Making a physical departure (washing) from the old ways, and a new birth (spiritual evolution) to God's true form.

We can share in God's Divinity. But, we need to Love Him, and have Faith that He loves us. Be like His Son Jesus here. Be like God in Heaven! Amen!
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Nice to meet you and appreciate your response ronedee. Even though I don't believe what you believe I can't help but smile at the sincerity of this response, in a good way, haha.

But if I am to be like God, that means that I am to be like an entity that chooses to allow evil to exist. Let's ignore the basis of my unbelief for the moment, which is that I see no reason to believe.

If I did believe, I am supposed to strive toward something which I cannot prove exists, cannot understand, and am not allowed to judge by the moral standards that have been given to me.

This makes no sense to me! How could I know that it is right to strive toward such a state? How could I possibly know, for example, that I am not being deceived?

If I did believe in God, I would have to believe in one that created me with a desire to understand things that I cannot possibly understand.