Death without Dying

[Eilonnwy]

Putting it all down to chemicals oversimplifies a great deal, there is also the physical topology of the brain as well as genetic information in the genome that is known as a few different things, Carl Jung first dubbed them Racial memory and cultural memory, there is also Birth memory which is a memory acquired without sensory experience or remembering the way we do normally.

Memory can also be inherited through meiosis and mitosis, again related to cultural and racial memory.

I see what you're saying. I was oversimplifying, but the point was that it still all exists in the brain right? And so if it's permanently damaged and those genetic factors are ruined, then your sense of self is dead, right? Of course if certain genetic components can't be ruined without the actual body dying then maybe there is something of you in there, but I think if you permanently can't remember your past life and are different from your past personality, that past self is essentially dead.

[theVOID]

Putting it all down to chemicals oversimplifies a great deal, there is also the physical topology of the brain as well as genetic information in the genome that is known as a few different things, Carl Jung first dubbed them Racial memory and cultural memory, there is also Birth memory which is a memory acquired without sensory experience or remembering the way we do normally.

Memory can also be inherited through meiosis and mitosis, again related to cultural and racial memory.

I see what you're saying. I was oversimplifying, but the point was that it still all exists in the brain right? And so if it's permanently damaged and those genetic factors are ruined, then your sense of self is dead, right? Of course if certain genetic components can't be ruined without the actual body dying then maybe there is something of you in there, but I think if you permanently can't remember your past life and are different from your past personality, that past self is essentially dead.

Well what level of memory loss are you talking about? Complete loss would be imo like you are a newborn again, you have to learn to count, speak, read, write, develop motor skills etc and would end up developing a personality completely different to your previous one - i don't know if this is possible but in the hypothetical it would be the equivalent dying - but then passing your machine over to another personality in much the same way a different OS can be installed on a computer.

I wonder if multi-booting is a metaphor for schizophrenia...

[Edwardo Piet]

Well, as I said, I think just all comes down to how you define 'the self'.

If you define it as your personality, and your personality completely changes after the accident...then what you defined as 'the self' has gone and therefore you lost your 'self' and so in that sense 'you' did indeed 'die'.

However, if you define your 'self' as your body plus your mind (or rather, as a materialist - the part of your body that is your brain and contains all your personality, and not just your personality/brain), then by that definiton your 'self' didn't die, just the part of your 'self' (the part of 'you') that was your personality died.

Untill you clearly define what you mean by 'self', I don't see how the question can be answered. And once you've defined it, I expect the answer would be something like the above.

Thoughts?

EvF

[theVOID]

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Well, as I said, I think just all comes down to how you define 'the self'.

If you define it as your personality, and your personality completely changes after the accident...then what you defined as 'the self' has gone and therefore you lost your 'self' and so in that sense 'you' did indeed 'die'.

However, if you define your 'self' as your body plus your mind (or rather, as a materialist - the part of your body that is your brain and contains all your personality, and not just your personality/brain), then by that definiton your 'self' didn't die, just the part of your 'self' (the part of 'you') that was your personality died.

Untill you clearly define what you mean by 'self', I don't see how the question can be answered. And once you've defined it, I expect the answer would be something like the above.

Thoughts?

EvF

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Totally agree, i think there is more to the self than the mind.

What do you think of the computer analogy?

[Edwardo Piet]

Good I think, nice analogy - the hardware is the same but the software is different. If your 'self' just to be the software, then in that sense when the software has gone, so have you, in that sense you have died. The new software 'isn't you' anymore... in that sense (If I've emphasised that enough!)

If however, you consider yourself to also be the hardware, then 'you' haven't died, 'just' your software has.

As you notice, I also put 'just' in scare quotes - because I think losing your software is no small thing, it's 'what makes you you', which is why this question is here in the first place I think. Because it seems to be quite natural to think of ourselves as just our software - our personality, our mind.

EvF

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

@Eilonwy

A materialist,I reject dualism. When I think of what makes the person,I think of "ego",literally "I am".

I have an accident,suffering severe brain injury,so that there is no memory. Is that person dead? I'd say yes. "A" person is dead. "THE" person remains alive. There is a new ego,a new sense of self.

I haven't given this much thought,but I will. I think it's a critically important in terms of working out 'what is a person' and 'who am I?'

Thank you for posting the question.

[theVOID]

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Good I think, nice analogy - the hardware is the same but the software is different. If your 'self' just to be the software, then in that sense when the software has gone, so have you, in that sense you have died. The new software 'isn't you' anymore... in that sense (If I've emphasised that enough!)

If however, you consider yourself to also be the hardware, then 'you' haven't died, 'just' your software has.

As you notice, I also put 'just' in scare quotes - because I think losing your software is no small thing, it's 'what makes you you', which is why this question is here in the first place I think. Because it seems to be quite natural to think of ourselves as just our software - our personality, our mind.

EvF

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Yes, the software is important but it may not be entirely as important as we think in determining the characteristics of the machine as a whole. I guess it comes down to how much of the persona is determined by genetics compared to experience.

[Edwardo Piet]

What might be an interesting thing to note is....when the new personality develops - what does it develop out of? If your personality is 'you', then does your 'new' personality grow out of the 'dead' one? (Ooh, ressurection) I mean, considering you have the same body and it's coming out of the same brain - wouldn't that perhaps still have some influence on of the 'new personality'? Would it necessarily have to have absolutely no influence on the growth of the new one at all...? Perhaps there would be some undetectable remains in some way, or some form of influence, that would have an effect in shaping the 'new' one?

EvF

[theVOID]

EvF - That was precisely what i was pondering regarding the role of genetics and the physical topology of the brain. I'd assume the new you would be somewhat similar to the old one.

[Retorth]

I suppose for even the slightest hint of similarity with the original, that is possible, but we (as in the outsiders) probably wouldn't be able to tell for it would be far too insignificant.