Childhood indoctrination

[littleendian]

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Stop deteriorating the signal-to-noise ratio, some people are trying to follow the discussion.

[little_monkey]

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Stop deteriorating the signal-to-noise ratio, some people are trying to follow the discussion.

I'm still waiting Forbinator to define what he means by ethical. I guess not only The Germans are coming is at fault here.

[KichigaiNeko]

Ummm news flash Forbinator, can't take your little pills either.... they tend to have a most disastrous effects to the point of me being hospitalised.

So I guess you are advocating that I just roll over and die along with the environment?

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But so do plants. They only lack a central nervous system.

Yes, completely minor detail I'm sure!

Are you sure? Do we REALLY know so much?

Beyond a reasonable doubt I would think, but you haven't provided me with an alternative so the point is a bit moot!

Ah there's the rub. You and your avocation of "animal rights" leave me and 75% of the total world population to starve (yeah I know that the 75% is an arbitrary figure pulled out of my backside but I am making a guess here that only 25% of the total world population can be vegan/vegetarian whilst the rest will have varying mixtures of vegetarian an omnivorism

You keep conveniently ignoring all the nutrition information available about where to get certain nutrients. I already posted links, and if all else fails, the worst case scenario is we have vitamin pills as I mentioned! I already said this, but you keep mentioning this same point as if the information and supplements don't exist.

But you ARE advocating that animals have priority over one's own children and you ARE acting against the interests of a species namely the entire plant kingdom with your vegan/vegetarianism.

Hah when did I advocate prioritising an animal over one's children? Are you trying to win straw man of the year? (Unless you're referring to the provision of a place to dust-bathe, which is not an interest that humans have!) And why do you keep ignoring the damning fact that the animals you eat are fed plants, at a rate of 6-12 x as much as the food they produce? In simple terms, meat-eaters decimate plant life at a much greater volume than vegans. I'm glad you apparently care so much about plants, but what is your solution to this? If meat-eating involves harming lots of plants, and veganism still involves harming some plants, then what alternative do you propose?

NOW THIS is something I AM with YOU on.

Kosher and Halal slaughter is an abomination, an insult, a desperate act by a puny little man thing; and as such should be abolished. It is NOT kind, humane, nor is it a swift clean kill.

So your objection was on animal cruelty grounds, so my assumption was correct...so why did you call me out for making an assumption!? How about responding to my post where I begin by stating that there is in fact evidence that you are against animal cruelty, and I draw conclusions based on that? Or maybe constructive debate isn't really your thing?

It clearly isn't your thing either forbinator

[thesummerqueen]

Amusing. I only made it to the third page, but amusing.

Humans made it this far because we were opportunistic omnivores. Not because we were exceptional herbivores. That would be cows.

I say that as the meat-eating friend of several vegan atheists

[Something completely different]

Amusing. I only made it to the third page, but amusing.

Humans made it this far because we were opportunistic omnivores. Not because we were exceptional herbivores. That would be cows.

I say that as the meat-eating friend of several vegan atheists

[thesummerqueen]

Meh.

Do you know who I have a problem with? Vegans who get in my face about it. Know who I don't? Vegans who leave me the fuck alone.

When the girls and I get together, we make both vegan and non vegan dishes potluck style so everyone is happy.

I figure, I REALLY like fruits and veggies (and tofu). So do they. I just also happen to like meat. Sort of like everyone likes sex, but not everyone likes the whips and chains. As long as they're not being crazy, I don't care.

I define crazy vegan as:

Anyone who doesn't research it enough to be able to feed and supplement their children properly. Do what you want to yourself - don't make your kids suffer for your ideals.

Anyone who tries to make their pets also eat vegan food. Cats and dogs are not omnivores or herbivores.

Anyone who engages in violent or destructive behavior to protest animal eating.

Anyone who feels the need to get in my face and tell me how similar animals are to us. We went to the moon. Cows didn't.

[Gilgamesh]

I don't accept that killing animals for meat is okay because everyone else does; I accept that it's okay because I can't reason that it's wrong.

I assume you reason that killing other people is wrong. What rational distinction do you see between killing non-human animals who want to live and human animals who want to live?

I just made one distinction. One point to reason that killing non-human animals is okay, where as killing humans is not, is that we eat non-human animals. We don't eat other humans.

Although, I don't necessarily think killing humans is wrong in the first place.

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Me too! And so does any cow and her calf and any sheep and any camel, and we have as much or as little right to ask for a good life as they do.

Why? We have power over them. We have the power to use them as a resource. I'd say that gives us more right. To me, it doesn't matter what you say or what the animal would say. Morality is subjective.

[The Grand Nudger]

Gilg,"They" have a fair amount of power over us as well. Food isn't a one way street.

Indian, livestock doesn't have the ability to ask for a "good life" - nevertheless we are capable of (and willing/eager to) giving one to them to a degree which they themselves are incapable.

Forb, eating - just eating....anything, involves "harming" alot of plants and animals regardless of what you eat. We could probably tone it down a fair bit.

[Gilgamesh]

"They" have a fair amount of power over us as well. Food isn't a one way street.

Yeah, if we're out in wild Africa and a lion wants us, he has the power to have us, of course.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, they may, but no, I'm talking about garden variety vegetables on your plate having a great deal of influence over you, whether you conceptualize it this way or not. It's useful to note that in your response one can see the jingling of the assumption that some sort of sentience is required to exert influence - to have power, in thinking of an example where something has power over you - you chose a lion. Corn has more power over you than a any lion has ever leveraged over any hominid - even if you've never seen a single ear of it.