Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism

[Faith No More]

I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

Miracles(supposedly) are physical phenomena. Therefore, science is the tool to use to discern them from natural ones.

[Ryantology]

I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

Reason and logic cannot lead one to the supernatural, because no honest knowledge can be attained from logic and reason which cannot be ultimately grounded in physical reality. Intuition is not to be trusted. It only ever leads to truth by accident.

Science describes the foundations of all information we can honestly call knowledge. If an assertion cannot be grounded in reality, it is no better than a blind guess and should not be taken seriously by anybody. If it is impossible to test and confirm independently (and no, correlating blind guesses do not count as independent confirmation), it is a lie to call it knowledge.

[Esquilax]

I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

We can only perceive physical things, though. If it's non-physical then we can't say it exists at all. So hey, if you want your god to be completely inaccessible and beyond everything, then cool; I have no reason to believe he exists at all, neither do you, and your entire claim falls apart. The only thing we could really say is that, since your "reason, logic and intuition" have led you to believe in an imaginary friend that nobody can see or hear, your ability to be rational is suspect.

However, if you're claiming, as you were in the OP, that god causes things to happen in the world as miracles, then congrats, because you've made a claim that's testable by science, and hence falsifiable. Good show.

So, which is it? Is your god distant and ineffective in the world, and therefore not rationally justifiable? Or does he actually do things here, in which case he's potentially falsifiable, and so far falsified?

[Zarith]

I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

I am a religious person for refusing to believe in supernatural claims for which there is no evidence? For insisting that claims about physical reality be verified? News to me. Always a real mind-bender hearing Christians claim logic & reason.

[Minimalist]

You are not dealing with a rational mind, Zar.

Anyone who believes in such hooey needs professional help and probably heavy duty medication.

[Tonus]

I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

I get the impression that you use the word "physical" as a substitute for "reality" and "metaphysical" as a substitute for "fantasy." It makes one seem as plausible as the other when you put it that way, but it doesn't change that you're comparing reality to fantasy.

[BettyG]

FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life. ,

Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. He was fully capable of feeling excruciating pain.

FallentoReason: Or if you're all-powerful, because nails ain't gonna do crap. [/quote

They put holes in His hands. Try it and see how I feels.

FallentoReason: And he did this while being all-knowing... knowing that he was going to see the light of day again.

How does knowing the future take away the pain one is experiencing NOW?

FallentoReason: Because he's divine.

Yes, and fully human.

FallentoReason: You can't kill a god. That's why there was no sacrifice.

I realize it is difficult to comprehend that Jesus could be both fully human and divine at the same time. The Romans killed His human flesh, not His divinity.

me:
There were 500 eyewitnesses that saw Him alive after He rose. (1 Corinthians 15) There has to be something super-human to explain this, because humans cannot do this on their own power.

FallentoReason: No, but a god can do this on their own.

THE God.

FallentoReason: So... where's the sacrifice again?

I do not see anyone lining up to volunteer to be crucified. Jesus did it of His own free will.

---

[quote='FallentoReason' pid='461582' dateline='1370995252']
[quote='BettyG' pid='461565' dateline='1370992394']
BettyG:Have you ever read about crucifixion? This web site describes it;
http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/crucifixion.htm
It was a sacrifice for Jesus to have His hands and feet punctured in a way that cause excruciating pain for three hours,

FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life.
BettyG: Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. He was fully capable of feeling excruciating pain. 

BettyG: have to put pressure on His feet to pull Himself up for every breath, and endure the embarrassment of hanging there naked. How willing would anyone be to do that? Only great love, super human love could do that.

FallentoReason: Or if you're all-powerful, because nails ain't gonna do crap.
BettyG:They put holes in His hands. Try it and see how it feels. 

BettyG:He did this all the while knowing He was innocent of the "crime" of blasphemy because He is God, not just claiming to be.

FallentoReason: And he did this while being all-knowing... knowing that he was going to see the light of day again.
BettyG: How does knowing the future take away the pain one is experiencing NOW?

BettyG: But you are digressing from the topic of miracles. So let's get back to that. How could Jesus, if He were merely human, rise from the dead?

FallentoReason: Because he's divine.
BettyG: Yes, and fully human. 

BettyG: When a Roman soldier thrust a lance through His heart, there is no way He could not be thoroughly dead.

FallentoReason: You can't kill a god. That's why there was no sacrifice.
BettyG:I realize it is difficult to comprehend that Jesus could be both fully human and divine at the same time. The Romans killed His human flesh, not His divinity.

BettyG:There were 500 eyewitnesses that saw Him alive after He rose. (1 Corinthians 15) There has to be something super-human to explain this, because humans cannot do this on their own power.

FallentoReason: No, but a god can do this on their own.
BettyG:Right. THE God, not a god. 
FallentoReason:: So... where's the sacrifice again?

BettyG: I do not see anyone lining up to volunteer to be crucified. Jesus did it of His own free will. 

---

[quote='BettyG' pid='461646' dateline='1371002970']
I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

Miracles(supposedly) are physical phenomena. Therefore, science is the tool to use to discern them from natural ones.

They are historical events.

[FallentoReason]

FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life.
BettyG: Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. He was fully capable of feeling excruciating pain. 

Ok. So what?

FallentoReason: Or if you're all-powerful, because nails ain't gonna do crap.
BettyG:They put holes in His hands. Try it and see how it feels. 

People have been through waaay worse in torture camps. And, given that Christianity is true, there's most likely the possibility that some of these torture victims were not saved and hence are experiencing an infinite punishment. Poor omnipotent Jesus' experience doesn't even come close to that.

FallentoReason: And he did this while being all-knowing... knowing that he was going to see the light of day again.
BettyG: How does knowing the future take away the pain one is experiencing NOW?

Because there was no sacrifice! He went into it knowing he won't stay dead. Nothing was lost and he knew this from the beginning.

FallentoReason: You can't kill a god. That's why there was no sacrifice.
BettyG:I realize it is difficult to comprehend that Jesus could be both fully human and divine at the same time. The Romans killed His human flesh, not His divinity.

What does a bunch of skin and bones mean to an omnimax being?? Even if it was a major loss to such an entity, he resurrected anyways. There was nothing lost, no sacrifice to be had.

FallentoReason:: So... where's the sacrifice again?
BettyG: I do not see anyone lining up to volunteer to be crucified. Jesus did it of His own free will. 

I wonder why he signed up... oh yeah, being omnipotent and omniscient, it was going to be a winning battle from the beginning. A mortal bodyguard taking a bullet for someone is more of a sacrifice than whatever Jesus allegedly did.

[BettyG]

The Roman soldiers who crucified people were experts at their jobs, they would have never allowed Jesus off that cross if they did not know He was dead. It would have cost them their lives, it is told to us that when the spear was run through His side a mix of blood and water poured out, Jesus had bleed out and pouring out bodily fluids. Again the Romans were proficient at crucifying people, they would break the legs of those still alive after a certain amount of time so they would suffocate shortly after that. They did not do that to Jesus, as prophecy foretold, they knew He was dead.

I asked this in another thread. Maybe slightly off-topic here but I would really like an answer:

Ok, please explain this to me. If I commit the ultimate sin of not believing in jesus, I will be cast into hell and tortured for eternity.

However, jesus, who took on the sins of all mankind, was crucified, dead for three days, then rose and now sits at the right hand of god. Never did ANY time at all in hell, didn't stay dead, and basks in the light of himself for all eternity.

So how does this work? I go to hell forever for my sins but my sins were forgiven by a guy who had a really bad hangover for a couple of days?

Jesus forgives those who repent and are committed to not sinning again. Salvation is a process. You have to continue in a state of grace.

---

I am defining miracles as special acts of God in the world. Since miracles are special acts of God, they can only exist where there is a God who can perform such acts.

No, you defined them as the opposite.

I started this thread. I get to define miracles.
I am defining miracles as special acts of God in the world and time. Since miracles are special acts of God, they can only exist where there is a God who can perform such acts. If one does not believe in God, then they cannot say miracles, as I define them, are impossible.

---

I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

I get the impression that you use the word "physical" as a substitute for "reality" and "metaphysical" as a substitute for "fantasy." It makes one seem as plausible as the other when you put it that way, but it doesn't change that you're comparing reality to fantasy.

metaphysical - of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses. It deals with some important questions, such as:
What is the meaning of Life?
What is my purpose?
What is God?
What is reality?
Why am I here?
Why does anything exist instead of nothing?
How did I get here?
Who and what am I?
What will happen when I die?

---

You are not dealing with a rational mind, Zar.

Anyone who believes in such hooey needs professional help and probably heavy duty medication.

Ad hominem attacks are not an appropriate method of debate. Stick to the topic.
I hear a circular argument: If miracles are impossible, the report of any miraculous event must be false, and therefore, miracles are impossible.

---

FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life.
BettyG: Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. He was fully capable of feeling excruciating pain. 

Ok. So what?

FallentoReason: Or if you're all-powerful, because nails ain't gonna do crap.
BettyG:They put holes in His hands. Try it and see how it feels. 

People have been through waaay worse in torture camps. And, given that Christianity is true, there's most likely the possibility that some of these torture victims were not saved and hence are experiencing an infinite punishment. Poor omnipotent Jesus' experience doesn't even come close to that.

FallentoReason: And he did this while being all-knowing... knowing that he was going to see the light of day again.
BettyG: How does knowing the future take away the pain one is experiencing NOW?

Because there was no sacrifice! He went into it knowing he won't stay dead. Nothing was lost and he knew this from the beginning.

FallentoReason: You can't kill a god. That's why there was no sacrifice.
BettyG:I realize it is difficult to comprehend that Jesus could be both fully human and divine at the same time. The Romans killed His human flesh, not His divinity.

What does a bunch of skin and bones mean to an omnimax being?? Even if it was a major loss to such an entity, he resurrected anyways. There was nothing lost, no sacrifice to be had.

FallentoReason:: So... where's the sacrifice again?
BettyG: I do not see anyone lining up to volunteer to be crucified. Jesus did it of His own free will. 

I wonder why he signed up... oh yeah, being omnipotent and omniscient, it was going to be a winning battle from the beginning. A mortal bodyguard taking a bullet for someone is more of a sacrifice than whatever Jesus allegedly did.

merriam-webster.com Definition of SACRIFICE
1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar
2: something offered in sacrifice
3a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>

1: Jesus offered Himself to the Father.
2: Jesus offered Himself.
3 He offered Himself for the forgiveness of sins.
4: He suffered the injustice of a shameful death, though He was innocent.

[FallentoReason]

merriam-webster.com Definition of SACRIFICE
1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar
2: something offered in sacrifice
3a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>

1: Jesus offered Himself to the Father.

1: *Jesus offered Himself to the Father a.k.a. Himself

2: Jesus offered Himself.

2: *Jesus offered Himself [to Himself]

3 He offered Himself for the forgiveness of sins.

3: *He offered Himself [to Himself] for the forgiveness of sins [of which He "invented"]

4: He suffered the injustice of a shameful death, though He was innocent.

Innocent or guilty, it doesn't even matter. The penalty wasn't effective because he came back to life.

Can you see how senseless this is yet? Here's an overview of what's actually happening:

OT god: "humanity needs to live up to the commandments"
*intermission: events take place*
NT god: "humanity needs to accept my forgiveness"

What's the nature of this "intermission" stage? Well, since it's God fooling around with himself, his thought process presumably went something like this:

OT god: "I've set up the system by which humanity ought to live and how they will be judged. Maybe it's time for a change though? I know, I'll perform some trivial events of which I know will play out in my favour (because I'm god, duh). This way, I can convince myself that my self-"sacrifice" is enough to make myself change my mind on how I will run things!"

There is nothing that is being "conquered" (a word Christians love in their circles) or nothing that is being "defeated". There's no sacrifice or no gift that I can accept, because no transaction was made, no money deposited elsewhere at the expense of someone, nothing lost or given up willingly. It's simply an entity fooling around with itself. The entire thing reduces to a god that is the same yesterday, today and forever paradoxically changing its mind. It's not a sacrifice, it's a change of mind dressed up as a sacrifice. Preach this philosophically redundant message if you want, but what is there to receive? Absolutely nothing.The whole concept is simply nauseating to think about and hardly the stuff of a rational omnimax entity. End of.