Morality

[crud]

sorry, I don't even understand what point this car talk is about any more...
"We are discussing absolute perfection"
no I was discussing an "absolute moral standard"

"Objective truth? You are joking aren't you. Do we really need to work through this as well. No, of course it doesn't exist."
So some truth is not objective? "The earth revolves around the sun"...is this not an objective truth?

[Whateverist]

.. you're surely not denying that objective truth can exist?

Truth is a relationship between language and reality. Language exists. Reality exists. Sometimes they hook up. What is your purpose in adding "objective" to the mix?

..So you are just saying that all morality is relative? - that's fair. but I can't see how it's different from moral nihlism.

Can't or won't? Why do you feel it is necessary to pretend to be an atheist to have this conversation and how is that working for you?

.... you first say morality is nothing more than subjective opinion, but then go on to use the word "immoral" like it actually has meaning

B-O-R-I-N-G

[The Grand Nudger]

When all comforts are met, all disease cured, and peace established. I see no reason for evolution to continue.

Evolution doesn't give a shit about our comforts, our diseases, or peace. None of these things will have (or even could have) any halting effect on the process. There is no endgame or goal, it's not trying to create a comfortable, disease free, peaceful collection of organisms. There isn't a moment where the process is even capable of sitting back and saying "it is finished". It doesn't reason, and it doesn't give a shit about our reasons. Can't stress this enough...no shits are given.

[purplepurpose]

Only with karma(reincarnation) everything becomes clear. If life(consciousness) is presumed to "selfasembled"(denies rule of cause and effect) from dead matter then by definition its despair and hopelessness in the end. With out God nothing adds up. Whit God and karma everything theoretically is perfect.

[Angrboda]

Certainty about philosophical propositions is a luxury that is best avoided in most cases.

I don't believe that nihilism is the necessary result.

[max-greece]

(let's say) A car is a box with wheels and seats. Anything which fulfills those criteria is fully a car. It can't be more of a car. It is a car, absolutely.

---

Must I, really? Replace the word 'God' for the word 'car' in your previous argument. If you do this you must conclude that God =/= perfection.

Right. I think you misunderstood.

I don't claim that the concept of God can't be improved. I see xtianity as the currently last evolutionary step.

We were not discussing what is morality (the car) we were arguing for an absolute standard for morality (the perfect car) by which all others are measured.

I cannot see why this is so difficult to understand.

In the meantime if we are going to get into what defines "car-ness" a box with wheels and seats includes a horse drawn carriage, a baby buggy, a train carriage, a motorcycle sidecar......

Not a very good attempt - have another go.

---

sorry, I don't even understand what point this car talk is about any more...
"We are discussing absolute perfection"
no I was discussing an "absolute moral standard"

"Objective truth? You are joking aren't you. Do we really need to work through this as well. No, of course it doesn't exist."
So some truth is not objective? "The earth revolves around the sun"...is this not an objective truth?

How does an absolute moral standard differ from absolute (moral) perfection?

The earth revolves around the sun is an objective truth as long as the universe is not virtual - a program running on a giant computer system somewhere. As it appears that the universe is digital that's not such a far fetched concept. If that were the case the earth doesn't actually exist, neither does the sun. Have another go.

[fr0d0]

I cannot see why this is so difficult to understand.

In the meantime if we are going to get into what defines "car-ness" a box with wheels and seats includes a horse drawn carriage, a baby buggy, a train carriage, a motorcycle sidecar......

Not a very good attempt - have another go.

I understand, don't worry. I just find this a fun diversion.

The point is, we know what we mean by 'car' as much as we know what we mean by justice. Secular morality. Got it. Perfect Morality... we know what it might look like.

[max-greece]

I understand, don't worry. I just find this a fun diversion.

The point is, we know what we mean by 'car' as much as we know what we mean by justice. Secular morality. Got it. Perfect Morality... we know what it might look like.

Well thank heavens for that - I was starting to worry.

OK. "Perfect Morality... we know what it might look like."

We could certainly believe we know what it might look like but equally we could be very far away from what it might actually be.

We ARE certainly a long long away from seeing it - but equally we are almost certainly closer to it than we have ever been as a developed species (last 5000 years nominally).

And, I forgot to add, it is a moving target. I do not believe there can be any moral position held that cannot be improved upon.

[genkaus]

Now firstly I just want to make it clear that I don't come from any religion at all. I've been brought up an Atheist, and a very rational thinker.

But, it seems to me that atheism brought to it's logical conclusions is; nihilism... Nietzsche is another who came to this same stance.
That morality is non existent, and the only purpose left of life is to pursuer our own maximum pleasure, by any means necessary.
Love, moral values, and meaning is just an self delusion, no different to the delusion of god.
This seems the only honest conclusion. Just one big vanity fair, where anything goes.

but, this is not something I can agree with... Not simply because of the despair it entails, but because it just doesn't make sense to me in my own personal life, and I doubt it does in yours either!
Despite my love of reason, and distaste for dogma, I can no longer call myself an atheist... unless a solution is presented

So I'm here to ask how you guys deal with this dilemma?
What grounds for morality is there without some type of god(I'd probably prefer the word "consciousness") that we all come from?
nationality? power? science?


ps. Can we leave the red herrings out of the discussion...
I'm not trying to say atheists are evil, or dispute that terrible actions committed are in the name of god, and the nonsense of religion, I'm not denying evolution, and I don't believe in hell.
I want to try and address this from a purely philosophical point of view.



cheers.

I come back from months of hiatus and it seems nothing has changed. We are still having the same old debate.

As far as I know, Nietzsche saw nihilism not as the ultimate logical conclusion of atheism but as a necessary point one would get to once you abandon god as a source of everything in your life. The next step would be finding a more solid foundation.

Consider your own statement about maximizing life's pleasure and ask yourself if it seems possible if love, values and meaning are taken away from it. There can be no morality without a consciousness, but that consciousness doesn't have to be god - a human should suffice.