Physicallity and Undetectibility

[Baalzebutt]

No, God would never change His ultimate plan, that is unchangable, what I described to you was a person's death is going to happen, we asked God's mercy upon the person and family and it happened, more than once it happened. The death happened earlier than it could have, yet changed nothing in God's plan.

You continue to contradict yourself.

If the death happened earlier (than originally PLANNED, before "prayer" intervention), that constitutes a change in the plan. If god answers any prayers, the plan has been changed.

So, either the plan is unchanging, in which case prayer is completely irrelevant, or the plan is flexible in which case your god is a dick.

I find it fascinating that you can carefully explain (read"make excuses for") those things which you find miraculous (i.e. early death for a suffering patient), yet, when it comes to contradictory situations (i.e. some people continuing to suffer), you go back to the default and complete bullshit answer of "you'll have to ask god".

How is it that you have complete clarity on miracles that do occur and yet lack even a fundamental understanding of miracles that don't occur?

[fr0d0]

All things are from God -assuming- God. You wouldn't agree with me there I presume, and there's no way for either of us to prove our assumption. Hence: "You can't know God did it".

I don't get it...

"you can't know" "god is everything"

You thought the two statements conflicting?
God is everything, assuming God. Because you cannot know objectively either way. To you (sans God), God isn't anything (because he is not assumed.
Hope that's clearer

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If you can't know god did anything, then how are you possibly justified in assuming he does anything at all?

I believe through faith: I act upon the trust I have developed in the information presented. No one can know, so we all have to assume one way or another. You assume not. I find your reasoning for that position flawed. Discussion ensues

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If he were guilty, sure.

Okay, let me guess: Your definition of God implies that even though he allegedly started this entire mess and supposedly "loves" us, He's not responsible for the trainwreck that's going down in Africa right now?

Nature is nature. It does what it does. It can be incredibly cruel and incredibly beautiful. That's what makes it so awesome.
Scientists regard tectonic activity as the supporter and facilitator of life on earth. Such a destructive force with such a creative purpose.
The problem of evil: without freedom, there can't be love. The problem of natural forces: physics has to work that way.

[little_monkey]

It's very simple: it's Goddddiiiddiitt, until science explains it.

[Godscreated]

No, God would never change His ultimate plan, that is unchangable, what I described to you was a person's death is going to happen, we asked God's mercy upon the person and family and it happened, more than once it happened. The death happened earlier than it could have, yet changed nothing in God's plan.

You continue to contradict yourself.

No I haven't, you desire to see it that way so you see what I've stated as what you perceived it to be, yes you have assumed something you wanted and then read it that way.

If the death happened earlier (than originally PLANNED, before "prayer" intervention), that constitutes a change in the plan. If god answers any prayers, the plan has been changed.

The death time of most people are not going to interfere with God's ultimate plan. Have you not read the verse saying "children obey your parents and your days may be prolonged. There is flexibility in God's plan for most individuals, not in God's absolute will. So yes prayer can make changes in a persons life.

So, either the plan is unchanging, in which case prayer is completely irrelevant, or the plan is flexible in which case your god is a dick.

What's wrong with a flexible plan for a persons life or even the life of a nation, just what standard are you trying to hold God to.
I as a contractor building a home have an ultimate plan to finish the home as the plans call for and do it on time. Does that mean I can not talk with my employees and listen to what they have to say. Does that mean I can't change my mind on what parts of the house is finished first, no in all cases. As long as I finish the house as planned and on time I've stated with the original plan, yet changed the order of things as I went, I could have even changed some of my employees and not changed the ultimate plan.

I find it fascinating that you can carefully explain (read"make excuses for") those things which you find miraculous (i.e. early death for a suffering patient), yet, when it comes to contradictory situations (i.e. some people continuing to suffer), you go back to the default and complete bullshit answer of "you'll have to ask god".

I said you would have to ask God about the things I do not know about, God did not make me privy to all His will but, He has taught me how to see some of the things He is doing.

How is it that you have complete clarity on miracles that do occur and yet lack even a fundamental understanding of miracles that don't occur?

Exactly how am I to explain to you about miracles that are not miracles, as a matter of fact how am I to always know when miracles occur, like I said above I'm not privy to God's complete will.

[Kim]

Who said that miracles cannot happen? Can't we define a miracle as "An Event that has a very low extreme probability of occurrence"? By that definition, and given the vastness of the cosmos, it is inevitable that miracles do happen!

[The Grand Nudger]

I doubt that this would be a very satisfying definition of a miracle, specifically for those inclined to believe in a divine origin of said miracles.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Who said that miracles cannot happen? Can't we define a miracle as "An Event that has a very low extreme probability of occurrence"? By that definition, and given the vastness of the cosmos, it is inevitable that miracles do happen!

The common connotation with the word miracle includes an added assumption that it was the result of intervention from a higher being.

I use the word miracle sometimes, but not when i'm talking to people who would think (or think i would think) that it's caused by god.

[simplexity]

"God" is just what hasn't been explained yet. So are so called "miracles". I prefer the term anomalous readings.

[Ryantology]

When so many phenomena once thought to be supernatural are tested by science and demonstrated to be natural events, and when no phenomena once thought to be supernatural are tested by science and demonstrated to not be natural events, why would anybody believe that any so-called miracle is actually the work of some supernatural god?

When the natural and the supernatural clash, the supernatural has never, ever come away victorious. The downside to framing all of your supernatural arguments in such a way that everything supposedly supernatural is in no way distinguishable from fantasy or ignorance is that, in the end, science will always demonstrate, sooner or later, that it is one or the other. The only defense of the supernaturalist is to move the goalposts again. Thankfully for the them, human imagination allows them to move them indefinitely.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

God is not testable He is Spirit, science can't test that. He created the universe and it's testable. God can heal people and it appear to be by conventional means, thus not appearing He did unless you're a believer. Aren't there cases of physical healing where doctors have no idea how it occurred, actually knowing what they did could not bring about the results. As far as I'm concerned the greatest miracle is salvation and science can not test that yet it occurs daily. Then those things that happen that have no scientific explanation, you will say we just do not understand yet but, in time we will. Really that seem like an arrogant assumption, no one could know if the answer will come in the future. So somethings God does is testable yet would seem to be accomplished by man, other things God does will never be testable by man, yet will not be accepted by those who do not know Him.

I think this is probably one of the funniest things I've read.

"When science works it was god. When science doesn't work is was god. When we don't know what the hell is going on, GOD GOD GOD".

How does one debate such a view? I guess exposing the silliness is a start.