"Touching a Nerve: The Self as Brain" by philosopher Patricia Churchland

[bennyboy]

That's why you could transcode an mp3 to hologram, to memory chips, or to arranged black-and-white seashells on the beach if you wanted to, and that information would be the same.

Not unless they all shared the same format, or were formatted. It can be -made to be the same-, would be a more accurate way to say this. Kind of the point of adopting any specific medium in the first place, from a standpoint of top down use. So that whatever information you wish to convey (be it the "meaningful experience" of casablanca -or- a series of slides-on-film of flesh eating bacteria) can be understood by more than one user. If I hand you a vhs cassette of casablanca..and you only have a dvd player...where did all that "meaningful experience" go?

Right. So if you happened upon "Penny Lane" arranged in black and white seashells on a beach, you wouldn't even know, unless you were aware of some kind of decoding algorithm. However, the specific mechanics of the information are separate from the information itself. You could rearrange your seashells into a Shakespeare book if you wanted to.

The point is that it may be the flow of information, which is relatively abstract, that may be responsible for consciousness of self, not the specific material structure of the brain. As soon as that information processing stops, for example if someone's in a coma, then the sense of self disappears, too. The alternative is that there is something magical about a specific arrangement of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen that allows sentience to flicker into existence. That idea seems pretty strange to me.

[The Grand Nudger]

Right. So if you happened upon "Penny Lane" arranged in black and white seashells on a beach, you wouldn't even know, unless you were aware of some kind of decoding algorithm.

-or, you'd interpret such "information" (if you were aware of it at all-of course), as something altogether different from "Penny Lane". Say, as, a crabs shopping list. Just trying to cover some options not mentioned.

However, the specific mechanics of the information are separate from the information itself. You could rearrange your seashells into a Shakespeare book if you wanted to.

The mechanics of how that information might be transmitted has a profound effect on that information - as above.

The point is that it may be the flow of information, which is relatively abstract, that may be responsible for consciousness of self, not the specific material structure of the brain.

Then we would be at a loss as to why the earth itself does not appear to have a "mind" - as much more information "flows" on the earth as a whole than will ever cross between our ears, wouldn;t you agree?

As soon as that information processing stops, for example if someone's in a coma, then the sense of self disappears, too.

You mean, as soon as the mechanics cease to be in place? Precisely.

The alternative is that there is something magical about a specific arrangement of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen that allows sentience to flicker into existence. That idea seems pretty strange to me.

The only way magic enters in is if you drop it in. Is there anything magical about flight? Specific arrangements of matter can have very dramatic effects. What's strange about that, specifically?

[bennyboy]

The mechanics of how that information might be transmitted has a profound effect on that information - as above.

Information is just the mapping of data onto properties, i.e. it "piggybacks" on any medium. An mp3 file is always going to be an mp3 file, no matter what medium it is arranged in, or what properties it is encoded into.

Then we would be at a loss as to why the earth itself does not appear to have a "mind" - as much more information "flows" on the earth as a whole than will ever cross between our ears, wouldn;t you agree?

This is a semantic question as much as an existential one. Each of us has no singular existence outside a concept with our name attached to it-- the reality is that there are billions of neurons happily firing away based on simple input and output. So where is the thinking? It's in the cloud.

Insofar as the thinking of humans manifests at the level of unified behavior, you COULD say the Earth thinks. But that's not how we are used to thinking about thinking, so to speak.

You mean, as soon as the mechanics cease to be in place? Precisely.

That's fine, so long as it's understood that it is the mechanical PROCESS which matters, not the physical structure.

The only way magic enters in is if you drop it in. Is there anything magical about flight? Specific arrangements of matter can have very dramatic effects. What's strange about that, specifically?

Pretty different. All the other effects are objective. It is only mind which is subjective. Don't believe me? I'll show you a flying airplane. Then you show me your mind.