Government is Irrational.

[Koolay]

Pretty simple, society organising without the initiation of force or violence.

Ummmm. . . that's a democratic government.

I think your thesis is flawed, because you are judging the actions of the government on 1) what's best for the average Joe; 2) what the politicians in the government SAY they are attempting to achieve.

Epic logic fail, IMO. The truth is that the government are acting rationally as selfish human beings, with their goals being wealth, power, and some kind of permanent legacy (i.e. they get their names in lots of books). Many of them are succeeding wildly, beyond their education, their class, and their ability to contribute to the society.

(It's not my thesis, it's just how it is.)

No, I am judging the government based on the non aggression principle and universally preferred behaviour, nothing to do with me.

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No, it can be decided upon private citizens. If likely no one wants to do business with a murderer, it won't take long before he or she runs out of resources, at which point they can pay amends via a private court or attempt to steal to get resources, at which point it wouldn't take long before he is killed by other people's self defence.

Oh ok, so you're saying violence initiated by individuals is ok, but if the government jails this person up and save us from the trouble of having to kill him ourselves, that would be not ok?

If someone initiates violence upon you or your property, you are within right to use violence to stop that action and ensure safety of people and property. There is a clear difference between initiating violence and violence for defence.

[Minimalist]

If someone initiates violence upon you or your property, you are within right to use violence to stop that action and ensure safety of people and property.

In small scale actions the guy who shoots first usually wins.

[Koolay]

If someone initiates violence upon you or your property, you are within right to use violence to stop that action and ensure safety of people and property.

In small scale actions the guy who shoots first usually wins.

That might be the case. Can I see the statistics please?

[pineapplebunnybounce]

If someone initiates violence upon you or your property, you are within right to use violence to stop that action and ensure safety of people and property. There is a clear difference between initiating violence and violence for defence.

Who determines this right? There is still law in this society? If there is law, who is enforcing it?

In a hypothetical scenario where someone initiates violence on someone physically weaker and successfully kills him. Who kills the initiator? Whoever kills the initiator would be doing it out of justice and not defence right? If the initiator is not attacking anyone after he kills his victim. Is that ok? Because isn't that what the government attempts to do if they jail someone who is convicted for murder? If it's not ok to kill out of justice, does that mean in this society as long as you pick on people who are weaker than you, you will thrive?

Doesn't sound very appealing.

[paulpablo]

Similar to God, Government breaks all of it's own rules it inflicts upon it's citizens. For example, The old testament God flooded the entire world killing all of every living thing bar 2 of every species, men, women, children were all drowned from the very same entity that said murdering is always wrong.

If you put the Government through any level of logic or Aristotelian principles it becomes illogical immediately.

Government, similiar to God, kills and inflicts harm on people in mass numbers, breaking and going above and beyond all of the proposed 'rules'.

For example, the government can put people in a cage and call it 'citizen rehabilitation', but if you do it, it is called kidnapping.

The government can kill people and it is called 'freedom fighting' or 'justice' or 'foreign policy', but if you kill people, you are simply called a murderer.

The government can steal and extort money from people and it is called 'taxation', if you do it, you are called a thief.

Not only is government irrational, but it is simply evil if you apply rational thought to it.

I like the points you made but to my knowledge having a government is the best form of organization we have, with human nature there is going to be some form of tyrannical abuses of power whatever happens, whether that's in some form of anarchy or within a government.

[Koolay]

If someone initiates violence upon you or your property, you are within right to use violence to stop that action and ensure safety of people and property. There is a clear difference between initiating violence and violence for defence.

Who determines this right? There is still law in this society? If there is law, who is enforcing it?

In a hypothetical scenario where someone initiates violence on someone physically weaker and successfully kills him. Who kills the initiator? Whoever kills the initiator would be doing it out of justice and not defence right? If the initiator is not attacking anyone after he kills his victim. Is that ok? Because isn't that what the government attempts to do if they jail someone who is convicted for murder? If it's not ok to kill out of justice, does that mean in this society as long as you pick on people who are weaker than you, you will thrive?

Doesn't sound very appealing.

Law is based on the non aggression principle, it is wrong to initiate force and it is wrong to commit fraud. In the act of violence, one can defend or hire a private security agency to defend people and property.

Disputes can be handled via private DROs (Dispute Resolution Organisation), such as courts and other services - eBay is a good example of this, as billions of dollars is transferred from across the world but governments never get involved in disputes as all disputes are handled by private agencies.

Murderers would be completely outcasted, from goods and services (I wouldn't want to do business with a murderer, and I doubt anyone else would). Initiating violence would be so unprofitable as word spreads around quickly, and as everyone and anyone can own firearms it wouldn't take long before the victim or bystanders kill the aggressor in defence.

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Similar to God, Government breaks all of it's own rules it inflicts upon it's citizens. For example, The old testament God flooded the entire world killing all of every living thing bar 2 of every species, men, women, children were all drowned from the very same entity that said murdering is always wrong.

If you put the Government through any level of logic or Aristotelian principles it becomes illogical immediately.

Government, similiar to God, kills and inflicts harm on people in mass numbers, breaking and going above and beyond all of the proposed 'rules'.

For example, the government can put people in a cage and call it 'citizen rehabilitation', but if you do it, it is called kidnapping.

The government can kill people and it is called 'freedom fighting' or 'justice' or 'foreign policy', but if you kill people, you are simply called a murderer.

The government can steal and extort money from people and it is called 'taxation', if you do it, you are called a thief.

Not only is government irrational, but it is simply evil if you apply rational thought to it.

I like the points you made but to my knowledge having a government is the best form of organization we have, with human nature there is going to be some form of tyrannical abuses of power whatever happens, whether that's in some form of anarchy or within a government.

Didn't people always say that throughout history?

'Slavery is not perfect, but it's the best system we have.'
'Monarchy is not perfect, but it's the best system we have.'

And how wrong were they?

How do you know that initiating violence is human nature? From what I have seen, humans are the only animals to exchange resources voluntarily through use of language, trade, negotiation. No other animal has the capabilities to peacefully negotiate (**bar a few genius chimps occasionaly trading apples for bananas).

How is anarchy an abuse of power?

How is government not tyrannical or any less tyrannical? How do you measure that?

[Minimalist]

In small scale actions the guy who shoots first usually wins.

That might be the case. Can I see the statistics please?

It's a military axiom but don't take my word for it. Put a gun in your pocket and walk around Central Park in NY City for a while. When someone sticks a gun in your face ask him to wait while you get your gun out.

Let me know how that works out for you.

[Koolay]

That might be the case. Can I see the statistics please?

It's a military axiom but don't take my word for it. Put a gun in your pocket and walk around Central Park in NY City for a while. When someone sticks a gun in your face ask him to wait while you get your gun out.

Let me know how that works out for you.

In a free society what's to stop someone hiring a security agency? or a by stander spontaneously drawing his gun on the aggressor?

And why is this person aggressing against people in the first place? A society free of initiation of violence would be so far advanced and different from our society, that these criminals would be just a primitive relic from the from the past.

It's like asking, what if the Spartan army invaded New York City? Well why are they there to begin with? You can't just jump from A to Z in a debate.

[paulpablo]

Slavery isn't a system it's basically someone is more powerful than someone else so therefore they take the freedom of someone else. I'm not saying that there is no better system than the government. But since you're using examples from history of systems which haven't worked has a country ever been successful and thriving with a good health care system and economy while in a state of anarchy?

Anarchy isn't an abuse of power, but humans have been known to abuse whatever power or strength they have when no laws are in place to stop them.

[Tartarus Sauce]

Unfortunately, a large-scale society running without an overseeing institution handling all the logistics seems irrational too. :/

Lose-lose situation no matter where you turn, time to pack our bags and head off to our own isolated islands and start mini-society's that we can actually manage.