Government is Irrational.

[LostLocke]

Emotions are involuntary defence mechanisms of the person, behaviour however is not, and is always in control.
The liar can stop lying at any time. The child abuser can stop abusing at any time. The thief can stop stealing at any time.

And the alcoholic can stop drinking at any time? The smoker quit smoking? The addict can stop shooting up? The guy bouncing of the walls from too much coffee can stop drinking? The gambler can stop gambling?

That's good to know. People can now stop wasting time and money on all these treatments and "just stop".

And apparently you've never heard of people doing things in a fit of rage.
Even the courts have a different degree of punishment when something is done in the heat of the moment. They recognize that people lose control under certain circumstances because their emotions take over their actions.

[DeistPaladin]

The government can steal and extort money from people and it is called 'taxation', if you do it, you are called a thief.

Taxes are dues paid for living in a civilization. They are not "theft".

The analogy is if a country were a condo association. We own our own condos (private property) but there is also "community space" (hallways, front lawn, depending on the size perhaps some amenities). The community space requires maintenance. This maintenance is paid for by monthly fees assessed to each owner, typically proportional with the square footage of each owners units. The money paid into the kitty is used to pay the collective bills of the community.

[Koolay]

Emotions are involuntary defence mechanisms of the person, behaviour however is not, and is always in control.
The liar can stop lying at any time. The child abuser can stop abusing at any time. The thief can stop stealing at any time.

And the alcoholic can stop drinking at any time? The smoker quit smoking? The addict can stop shooting up? The guy bouncing of the walls from too much coffee can stop drinking? The gambler can stop gambling?

That's good to know. People can now stop wasting time and money on all these treatments and "just stop".

And apparently you've never heard of people doing things in a fit of rage.
Even the courts have a different degree of punishment when something is done in the heat of the moment. They recognize that people lose control under certain circumstances because their emotions take over their actions.

Well yes, of course they can stop - of course that person has to come to terms with whatever they are trying to suppress with their addictions and go through the process of mourning of whatever they lost.

Well yes, you can be provoked into doing something. Like if someone was insulting you and being verbally aggressive to you, and that person punched or smacked the provoker. That is less worse than if someone randomly punches someone in the street. But it's certainly not a good action on either side of the spectrum.

---

The government can steal and extort money from people and it is called 'taxation', if you do it, you are called a thief.

Taxes are dues paid for living in a civilization. They are not "theft".

The analogy is if a country were a condo association. We own our own condos (private property) but there is also "community space" (hallways, front lawn, depending on the size perhaps some amenities). The community space requires maintenance. This maintenance is paid for by monthly fees assessed to each owner, typically proportional with the square footage of each owners units. The money paid into the kitty is used to pay the collective bills of the community.

Definition of Stealing:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stealing

To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

The government does not require permission to take resources. In fact, The average newborn in America has to pay a conservative estimate of $50,000 in fiscal debt (not including other liabilities), having signed no piece of paper, never voted - just purely forced to pay for the mistakes of others. That is literally deferred stealing from foetuses.

You are advocating for adult men to sell off foetuses to Chinese bankers.

And I guess to you, you would call a mafia extorting money from non violent business 'collecting collective bills of the Mafia's family- and if they don't like it, they should just either move, or suffer the consequences - hey! you don't have to support the mafia' that is what you are telling me right now.

Stealing is wrong, plain and simple. Nobody has the right to initiate force, just because the 'Government' has badges and blue costumes- doesn't mean shit.

[bennyboy]

Koolay, you aren't the first person to rant about the government. However, if you're here ONLY to do that, it amounts to intellectual masturbation and hypocrisy. Are you testing the waters for actual action? Are you here to present a call to arms? What exactly, are you doing, other than placing blame for the world's ills on "The They," so that you don't have to accept your own shortcomings, or get off your sofa and participate in the political process?

I ask this because you are relying heavily on rhetoric-- emotional exaggeration, demonization of an unspecified enemy, etc. These are not the kinds of word normally used for debate. They are soapbox words, meant to sway others by any means necessary to one's cause. So what's your cause, and what do you have to offer as a leader for this cause?

[Koolay]

Koolay, you aren't the first person to rant about the government. However, if you're here ONLY to do that, it amounts to intellectual masturbation and hypocrisy. Are you testing the waters for actual action? Are you here to present a call to arms? What exactly, are you doing, other than placing blame for the world's ills on "The They,"

I'm not so much ranting about 'government', government is just a made up word to avoid logic and morality. I am pointing out the logical and moral inconsistency of initiating force against another person and then saying initiating force is wrong. If it's Government, Mafia, Religion, Cult or whatever it is, it doesn't really matter what rhetoric is used, initiating force is still initiating force. Government just happens to have a monopoly on initiating violence.

I don't know what form the anarchic revolution will take, but hopefully it will be a gradual process, rather than a violent revolution.

so that you don't have to accept your own shortcomings, or get off your sofa and participate in the political process?

What shortcomings are you referring to?

Why would I try and change the government from the inside? that would be like joining the Mafia to turn it into a peaceful organisation. I will not contribute to violent people any more than I have to by compulsion. Me voting or getting politically involved is like a slave giving the slave master a complaint slip- I will not degrade myself like that, and pretend that my oppressors have any interest in freeing me or my fellow slaves.

I ask this because you are relying heavily on rhetoric-- emotional exaggeration, demonization of an unspecified enemy, etc. These are not the kinds of word normally used for debate. They are soapbox words, meant to sway others by any means necessary to one's cause. So what's your cause, and what do you have to offer as a leader for this cause?

You think so? Emotional of course, but unspecified? I have been very clear in my definitions that those that initiate force are the natural enemy of peaceful people.

Why do you assume I am proposing leadership? Do atheists need a leader? No, I just want people to live happy, successful lives free from those who wish to initiate violence upon them, the costume of the aggressor doesn't mean anything to the victims.

[DeistPaladin]

To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

The government does have permission. It's called "voting".

Now it does happen that not everyone will agree with the spending priorities of the government. This is like in the condo association I used to belong to where one continuously disgruntled member seemed to forever disagree with the majority on how money was spent. He stopped paying his maintenance and we took legal action. Sorry, you don't get to do that. If you don't like how the condo association spends its money, move or convince more people of your position.

Personally, I'd love for government to be run a-la-carte somehow. I don't want to pay the 2 trillion dollar war in Iraq and the botched war in Afghanistan. I don't want to pay for W Bush's trillion dollar giveaway to big pharma or all the money that got funneled into sweet no-bid contracts to Halliburton. I'd like to not have to pay for the largest incarceration per capita worldwide because of this asinine "War on Drugs". And the banks that crashed our economy should be the ones to pay for the mess, not the taxpayers. And I think we can cut our bloated military budget in half, now that the Cold War is over, and we'll still be spending more than the next four nations combined. And I don't want to subsidize the wealth of the top 1% in this country by putting their share of running the government on our future tab that you're so worried about.

It would be great if we could impose a "Dumb Ass Tax" on everyone who voted for W Bush in 2004 to pay for the record deficits he created. By 2004, it was clear he'd lied us into a costly war in Iraq and those that still voted for him should pay for it. However, life doesn't work that way and government can't be a buffet table where we get to pick and choose what we individually want.

I'm not accusing you of being a member of the GOP but if you're worried about the debt, let's take a hard look at conservative pet projects and how costly they are.

And if you don't like paying taxes, go live in the wild. Let me know how that works for you.

[Koolay]

The government does have permission. It's called "voting".

So you are saying that a stranger can sign a contract on behalf of another stranger in regards to financial, educational, and moral decisions?.

That's not what permission is.

Now it does happen that not everyone will agree with the spending priorities of the government. This is like in the condo association I used to belong to where one continuously disgruntled member seemed to forever disagree with the majority on how money was spent. He stopped paying his maintenance and we took legal action. Sorry, you don't get to do that. If you don't like how the condo association spends its money, move or convince more people of your position.

If that guy doesn't purchase the condo, he doesen't get put in a cage. Nobody is forcing him to purchase/use the condo in the first place since it is a private enterprise. There are no punishments for not purchasing the condo. However if you disagree with governments products and services you get put in a cage.

Personally, I'd love for government to be run a-la-carte somehow. I don't want to pay the 2 trillion dollar war in Iraq and the botched war in Afghanistan. I don't want to pay for W Bush's trillion dollar giveaway to big pharma or all the money that got funneled into sweet no-bid contracts to Halliburton. I'd like to not have to pay for the largest incarceration per capita worldwide because of this asinine "War on Drugs". And the banks that crashed our economy should be the ones to pay for the mess, not the taxpayers. And I think we can cut our bloated military budget in half, now that the Cold War is over, and we'll still be spending more than the next four nations combined. And I don't want to subsidize the wealth of the top 1% in this country by putting their share of running the government on our future tab that you're so worried about.

Or better yet, stop the violent monopoly that has the power to do all of what you said. Nobody has the right to put someone in a cage because they own a plant. Nobody has the right to blow up innocents halfway across the world and call it 'defence'. 'But if we can make tweaks here and th'- no!

It would be great if we could impose a "Dumb Ass Tax" on everyone who voted for W Bush in 2004 to pay for the record deficits he created. By 2004, it was clear he'd lied us into a costly war in Iraq and those that still voted for him should pay for it. However, life doesn't work that way and government can't be a buffet table where we get to pick and choose what we individually want.

Honestly that's a pretty good idea. I think people would be a lot more careful if the governments projects funding came directly out of their pocket rather than out of deferred foetuses' pockets and twisted and warped in the monetary system. There is no real accountability for crimes in politics, let alone the value of money.

I'm not accusing you of being a member of the GOP but if you're worried about the debt, let's take a hard look at conservative pet projects and how costly they are.

Conservatives are just as villainous as Democrats, they come from the same cloth of aggression. They claim to be against extortion of money to fund people's desires, but when War is concerned- money is no object.

And if you don't like paying taxes, go live in the wild. Let me know how that works for you.

'If you don't like government, just move'

Way to spit on the graves of everyone that have been victims of government.

Would you say that to a jew in 1940s Germany? 'If you don't like the government just move.'

How about the aggressor move into the forest not to bother anyone and leave the peaceful and productive alone.

[Savannahw]

You know you can move right? No one is forcing you to stay here. Yes, If you are a citizen of this country then you have to pay taxes. Yes, most citizens are born here, but you can LEAVE. Government is a good thing. It proves many services. If you want to live here, you have to contribute to the payment of them. Let me list a few good services the government provides.
Pell grants
Foster care, sure it needs work, but if your an orphan it is much better than starving.
Food stamps
Homes for the elderly
Fire stations
Emergency medical care
Public education
Transportation infrastucture like streets and highways
Social security
Mail
Military
NASA
Police
Public transportation
Farming subsidies
These are just a things I thought of will waiting in the car. As a citizen of my government, I do not have to agree with everything it does. I think snail mail is seriously outdated. I think it could be next to elimated. If that is what I want I can vote for someone who agrees with my position, run myself, convince my current representitive to agree, or leave. Move to Mexico if you don't like it. Live on a milita compound. I don't care. But it is so frustrating to see someone complain about the government and not be willing to act. If you don't like it you have options.

[Tonus]

No, it can be decided upon private citizens. If likely no one wants to do business with a murderer, it won't take long before he or she runs out of resources, at which point they can pay amends via a private court or attempt to steal to get resources, at which point it wouldn't take long before he is killed by other people's self defence.

So the risk of being a murderer in a non-violent society is that eventually someone might murder you right back?

[Koolay]

You know you can move right? No one is forcing you to stay here.

Yep, no one was forcing the jews to stay in 1940s Germany, they should of just left or suffered the consequences.

Yes, If you are a citizen of this country then you have to pay taxes.

No, people pay taxes not to get put in a cage.

Let me list a few good services the government provides.
Pell grants
Foster care, sure it needs work, but if your an orphan it is much better than starving.
Food stamps
Homes for the elderly
Fire stations
Emergency medical care
Public education
Transportation infrastucture like streets and highways
Social security
Mail
Military
NASA
Police
Public transportation
Farming subsidies

And slave masters provide things to their slaves:

Food
Shelter
Healthcare
Clothes
Water

So slavery is good too right?