Determinism Is Self Defeating

[CapnAwesome]

I still don't think you understand determinism, because deterministically, you will or will not change your mind based on the argument given. Cause and effect. He doesn't have the free will to not try to change your mind. Causes leading up to this point have already brought that about. Your mind will change based on the the preceding effect or it won't based on the makeup of your mind. Complicated. I think not.

No... where is the reason and evidence? you can't just say something is like that in what is supposed to be a debate.

What? Where is your evidence that you need reason and evidence? Where is your evidence that this is a debate?

[bennyboy]

Let's say you are working with QM. You say it's deterministic, but unknowable. I happen to know that there's a high-level physicist on this site, and I believe he will disagree with that (i.e. I remember him having said something in the past that I think disagreed with that).

"High-level" lol.
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle states that we cannot know precisely both the speed and position of any given particle....
But... just because we can't measure it, it doesn't mean that the particle can't be at a given location and with a given velocity... does it?
Well, all particles must have some length, so a precise position is a strange concept, unless you go for the position of the center, where QM gives you the maximum of the wave function... which tends to be the same.

However, on a slightly less nanoscopic level, these uncertainties become a bit less pronounced and statistics takes over... the averaged wave function gets interpreted as a probability distribution and you get a very accurate (as far we've been able to measure it) probability for each state of the particle.
And, armed with those probabilities, you can determine the what's going to happen and how often.

But what do I know? I'm just a low-level physicist...

Great news!

Okay, given the starting position of the balls in a lottery machine, and their tumbling time in milliseconds before being dropped down their little chutes for display, tell me the winning numbers. Or tell me what the weather will be like on my next birthday.

You will say, "If I had accurate enough information, and enough computational power, I COULD tell you those things." But that's like saying, "If I could go faster than the speed of light, I could . . ."

The reality is you can't calculate the individual particles of even a simple system, and probably will never be able to. You can calculate ONLY on the statistical level, and in many cases not accurately. This is hardly a strong enough foundation on which to establish an absolute philosopy like that of determinism.

[simplexity]

How is that non-deterministic?

Because that rock has no free will, but you can easily choose to avoid being hit by the rock. The rock can't choose to move another direction or not fall.

The fact that you have the kind of free will you are talking about is a delusion. How does the thought to not move out of the way come into your mind? It just pops into existence, from where? From the deterministic mechanism of your mind. Whether you choose it or not is an effect.

[Koolay]

No... where is the reason and evidence? you can't just say something is like that in what is supposed to be a debate.

What? Where is your evidence that you need reason and evidence? Where is your evidence that this is a debate?

My evidence is simple, by the sheer fact that people are trying to convince me that determinism is true is testament to the fact that they themselves accept that I have choices. They do the argument for me.

---

Because that rock has no free will, but you can easily choose to avoid being hit by the rock. The rock can't choose to move another direction or not fall.

The fact that you have the kind of free will you are talking about is a delusion. How does the thought to not move out of the way come into your mind. It just pops into existence, from where? From deterministic mechanism of your mind. Whether you choose it or not is an effect.

Do you have a personal struggle with responsibility and choices?

[Inigo]

Want an argument for the compatibility of free will and determinism? Here's one (it is very simple)

1. Determinism is true
2. We have free will.
3. Free will is compatible with determinism

[Koolay]

Want an argument for the compatibility of free will and determinism? Here's one (it is very simple)

1. Determinism is true
2. We have free will.
3. Free will is compatible with determinism

Correct.

Only lifeforms have free will, that's why they call it life. Earth, the weather, stars, etc are deterministic.

[simplexity]

Do you have a personal struggle with responsibility and choices?

Did you read? Think about where the thought came from. Were you free to have the thought? Or did it just pop into the aware part of your mind?

Both responsibility and choices are taken care of in a deterministic universe. I feel responsible for something because of preceding causation's in my mind. Asking whether I am 'responsible' has no bearing on whether determinism is true.

If you accept determinism is true for the external but not for ourselves, please give your definition of free will and then then provide evidence for how this free will exists.

[bennyboy]

Based on what reason and evidence?

My brain works based on the laws of physics.
Everything that happens in my head is then deterministic... highly complex, I'll grant you that, but determined by the laws of physics... even if we may have missed some of them.
My brain sends electrical impulses which cause my body to move and type these things on this forum.

Do you have any reason or evidence that states that the brain works non-deterministically?

Show the rules by which physics manifests as subjective awareness-- and not just the appearance of it.

This whole thread is basically a process of begging the question-- "Well, we know that everything is dictated by the rules of physics, including the brain. Therefore, the mind is deterministic." I have a serious problem with this, for three reasons:
1) Nobody has created a physical description of mind, or interacted directly with one. Nobody has measured one, created one, or even provably destroyed one. Nor have you explained in a sensible way why the subjective perspective exists at all in a universe which could function perfectly well without it.

2) You are assuming that because the mind is supervenient on the brain, it cannot offer anything beyond the function of the brain. That's like saying "Casablanca is just a complex interaction of QM particles, and doesn't offer anything beyond the function of a movie projector"-- it doesn't actually explain how something like Casablanca exists, or describe its symbolic importance to the human minds watching it.

3) You ( and by this I mean you and the other physical monists ) keep asking people to furnish evidence that any competitor to the physical monist determinism you take as the default is wrong/incomplete. However, at no point have you actually established the truth of determinism, particularly with regard to mind. Instead, you point to brain function. However, this begs the question-- kind of the point of non-determinism is that mind on some level transcends the pure physical mechanism of the brain. As for evidence, I take as evidence the existence of the subjective perspective, aka sentience, itself. Why should a purely objective physical process manifest as subjective awareness? So far, Dennett has made the most famous attempt at this, but I find it pretty unconvincing.

[Inigo]

Although....

1. We have free will
2. Free will requires indeterminism
3. Indeterminism is true.

[Silver]

Show me the evidence that "things could not have gone differently than they have." You cannot.

True. However, the fact that one always has a choice between two or more options in every step of life, one must understand that choosing the right path will lead to a completely different end result than having chosen the left path.

The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost gives one a glimpse of that.

Of course, free will only exists if god does not exist. Since he does not....