Government as a Religion

[genkaus]

Isn't that preferable? Surely you want people to self organise and govern without initiating violence.

If they could. But they can't.

Nonono. It's not that I am unhappy with the government. The government is morally and logically wrong by it's own test of logic and morality, it is an irrational entity as it tells citizens that using violence is wrong, but they can bomb kids houses half way across the world.

This has nothing to do with my preferences, it is logically and morally wrong, by the government's own test of logic and morality.

Why would I try to reform something which is evil by definition? The belief that government can be good 'if only I can reform it' is like joining the Mafia to try and change it into a peaceful and voluntary society. A predator can not be persuaded and convinced not to eat the gazelle.

That's where you are wrong. The government doesn't say using violence is wrong - it says initiating violence is wrong. Using violence in defense or reprisal is not only justified, it is right. And that is how it justifes any and all violence it commits.

Attacking foreign lands - they started it. Putting people in jail for withholding taxes - an act of violence on par with stealing, since that money rightfully belongs to the government. Selling drugs - a chemical attack on a man's nervous system compromising his volition. So, you see, it passes it own test of logic and morality.

[Bad Writer]

Used to say?

People have always said in history that without religion or God we would all be killing and stealing from each other.

Just in history, or even today?

That aside, even if you have anarchy, you still haven't done away with government. There may not be a governing body, but individuals will still govern themselves, so you haven't exactly done away with choice or consequences for actions if you have gotten rid of government.

Isn't that preferable? Surely you want people to self organise and govern without initiating violence.

How can you possibly know that? There are many different working models of anarchy, and violence actually fits into many of them. You are wrong wrong wrong. Go read a book.

It's not that I am unhappy with the government. The government is morally and logically wrong by it's own test of logic and morality, it is an irrational entity as it tells citizens that using aggression is wrong, but they can bomb kids houses half way across the world.

If you think it's irrational, then work towards reforming it! Your logic doesn't cover all its bases, and is, therefore, irrational.

Why would I try to reform something which is evil by definition? The belief that government can be good 'if only I can reform it' is like joining the Mafia to try and change it into a peaceful and voluntary society. A predator can not be persuaded and convinced to not to eat the gazelle.

Then go live in the woods if you don't like "evil" government! I wouldn't want you voting against me anyway!

[thesummerqueen]

Then go live in the woods if you don't like "evil" government! I wouldn't want you voting against me anyway!

He wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[Bad Writer]

I'm evolved enough to realize that I live in the real world.

[thesummerqueen]

I'm evolved enough to realize that I live in the real world.

Right? One in which you realize you actually interact with other people?

[CleanShavenJesus]

Another Koolay topic on government?

[pocaracas]

Actually, governments take after kingdoms and fiefdoms: "This is my land, if you want to live in it, you must pay a tax."
Eventually, they outgrew the greedy part and managed to put part of those taxes to good use, so that their people could have an easier life...
Romans built roads and aqueducts...
Middle ages European kings built... err... hmmm... more roads and bridges and a few aqueducts.... they also had their special way of holding a court of law.
Eventually they introduced policing the streets.
Nowadays, governments are responsible for roads, sewage, solid residues (trash), water supply, electricity supply, gas (the sort that heats water in your house, not the sort that power cars) supply, the economy, lawmaking and enforcing... not to mention that taxes must also sustain the people who control all these in a higher level... aka, the government, the politicians.


Human societies have had a hierarchical structure since way back... tribes and the like....

Religions also borrowed the hierarchy from such pre-existing structures... it was only sensible. Any large enough set of people needs to have a hierarchy of sorts, or else all hell breaks loose as, at least, one element starts taking advantage of everyone else's work and, pretty soon, everyone else copies him and things just stop.

[Doubting Thomas]

Nowadays, governments are responsible for roads, sewage, solid residues (trash), water supply, electricity supply, gas (the sort that heats water in your house, not the sort that power cars) supply, the economy, lawmaking and enforcing...

[Koolay]

Actually, governments take after kingdoms and fiefdoms: "This is my land, if you want to live in it, you must pay a tax."
Eventually, they outgrew the greedy part and managed to put part of those taxes to good use, so that their people could have an easier life...

So you are saying stealing is okay if what is stolen is put to what you perceive to be useful?

Romans built roads and aqueducts...
Middle ages European kings built... err... hmmm... more roads and bridges and a few aqueducts.... they also had their special way of holding a court of law.
Eventually they introduced policing the streets.
Nowadays, governments are responsible for roads, sewage, solid residues (trash), water supply, electricity supply, gas (the sort that heats water in your house, not the sort that power cars) supply, the economy, lawmaking and enforcing... not to mention that taxes must also sustain the people who control all these in a higher level... aka, the government, the politicians.

And slave masters give their slaves food and shelter.

Religions also borrowed the hierarchy from such pre-existing structures... it was only sensible. Any large enough set of people needs to have a hierarchy of sorts, or else all hell breaks loose as, at least, one element starts taking advantage of everyone else's work and, pretty soon, everyone else copies him and things just stop.

Why do people need a hierarchy to function in the first place?

[thesummerqueen]

Holy. Fuck.

It is NOT stealing.

Why do people need a hierarchy to function in the first place?

Because the more civilized among us realized we didn't want twats like you to be able to make decisions without mediators between you and us.