Question(s) for the Religious

[Godscreated]

Well that settles that! On to the next topic. So...What is the best form of government?

That would be a subjective opinion, but I like the one we have.

GC

[The Reality Salesman01]

Well that settles that! On to the next topic. So...What is the best form of government?

That would be a subjective opinion, but I like the one we have.

A little tip, if its an opinion, you don't have to specify that it's subjective. Of course, given the nature of your religious preference, these terms, among others, often get thrown around in all sorts of directions. I can see how it may be more confusing for you.

[John V]

The point is that, to us, that's all religion is.

And my point is that your position is ad hoc and based on your biases. You apply rules of evidence differently to religion than you do other things in order to reach your desired conclusion.
[You ask for proof of the Spaghetti monster (not Pastrami but same Italian origin) [/quote]
No, I haven't asked for proof of IPU or FSM.

because you cannot take us at our word.

Just the opposite. I don't ask for proof because I do take you at your word. You admit that these are purely human constructs, and I accept that.

It doesn't matter if this thing is spiritual or corporeal, for neither can be proven with demonstrable evidence, as far as we've seen.

This is a false dichotomy. There are degrees of evidence. That neither of two things can be conclusively proven does not imply that the two have equal evidence or lack thereof.

You ask us to take a walk in your shoes, to believe in something we can't see, to give faith a try.

No I don't.

Many of us have attempted this, and results always vary, or there are simply no results. If you took a look at the world through our eyes, to try and see if your god can be demonstrated to exist by some testable and reproducible means, then you might understand us a little better.

I do understand you. I've never claimed that your lack of belief is unintelligible.

Bottom-line, your examination process is flawed simply because you are shifting the burden of proof of your claim. We understand that you believe in it, but we can't verify its veracity without evidence, so we don't attempt to believe in it as you do. Doing so is called using faith, and faith is always blind.

Why is faith always blind?

I don't think that's what WV was postulating. The situation he created, that is, the person making up spiritual claims, is going to try very hard not to wink at the crowd when he gives his spiel. Whether the claim comes from an honest believer or a decidedly conny con man, we still need evidence to demonstrate whether or not what either person says is true.

What type of evidence is needed in addition to testimony, and why? What do we have regarding historical claims before sound recording and photography other than testimony? How do we know that the Gettysburg address occurred?

[Godscreated]

Because God has proved Himself to me and He states in His word that He is the only God, so I would be wasting time looking into those others.

How did God prove himself to you? How do you know what his word is?

When and if you ever experience it you'll have your answer, we've been through this to many times for me to need to explain it again, sharpen your memory.

GC

[Chas]

Maybe it's just your reading skills that are out of whack.

zombie atheist: "evidence"

No, my reading skills are fine. It is your lack of critical thinking skills that is the problem.
And you clearly do not understand what constitutes evidence.

TWAT!

You ask about evidence when the question is about your misunderstanding of what faith in the Christian sense means.

Evidence zombie!

Here you are. I won't dumb it down for someone with such superior intelligence:

What is Faith:
Being persuaded and fully committed in trust, involving a confident belief in the truth, value, and trustworthiness of God. When it comes to Christianity, 'faith' is defined by three separate but vitally connected aspects (especially from Luther and Melancthon onwards): notitia (informational content), assensus (intellectual assent), and fiducia (committed trust). So faith is the sum of having the information, being persuaded of its truthfulness, and trusting in it. To illustrate the three aspects: "Christ died for ours sins" (notitia); "I am persuaded that Christ died for our sins" (notitia + assensus); "I deeply commit in trust to Christ who I am persuaded died for our sins" (notitia + assensus + fiducia). Only the latter constitutes faith, on the Christian view.

Consequently, notitia and fiducia without assensus is blind and therefore not faith. This shipwrecks the egregious canard that faith is merely a blind leap. Faith goes beyond reason—i.e., into the arena of trust—but never against reason. From the Enlightenment onwards, faith has been subject to constant attempts at redefining it into the realm of the irrational or irrelevant (e.g., Kant's noumenal category); but all such attempts are built on irresponsible straw man caricatures that bear no resemblance to faith as held under the Christian view: notitia, assensus, and fiducia.

Notitia: What informational content? Content of what?

Assensus: Assent to what? Unsupported statements about sin and forgiveness?

Fiducia: Commitment to the above unsupported assent and information?


These are simply word games about believing something for which there is no evidence.

[Bad Writer]

God doesn't threaten you,

Philippians 2:12, 'Work out your salvation with fear and trembling'
Combining 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Hebrews 12:1-12, we see that God does rebuke, correct, train, teach, punish, and discipline.

But this one is my favorite:

Matthew 26:52-54 ESV

'Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”'

nor does He torture you,

Hell is eternal torture. To reject Christ is to submit to this torture. Constantly having the fear of hell on your mind is torture for your entire life.

BTW, Revelations is an entire book about torture at the hands of God.

you are born to the destination of hell, just as everyone else is. God does offer a way to change that destination, the offer is to all, and those who accept it will have their destination changed.

Your god is an asshole since all those without a chance to hear his words are doomed. He is, therefore, torturing them for no good reason. Babies are all doomed, for they weren't old enough to accept him.

[Godscreated]

Ooh, you're so close it's almost painful! Just take that vital next step and you'll have made it - come on, I know you can do it!

GC

[fr0d0]

@ Chas: To you word games... but the you don't understand them yet - why am I surprised that already you dismiss them? Seriously dude, you lack integrity.

[Chas]

@ Chas: To you word games... but the you don't understand them yet - why am I surprised that already you dismiss them? Seriously dude, you lack integrity.

You know, Fr0d0, you are intellectually deficient. Knowledge requires evidence. Without evidence, it is hypothesis - not knowledge.

[Bad Writer]

How did God prove himself to you? How do you know what his word is?

When and if you ever experience it you'll have your answer, we've been through this to many times for me to need to explain it again, sharpen your memory.

So you answer with a non-answer. Great job dodging the question!

But seriously, we may have been over a few things, but this is the answer that is always left unanswered. Myself and the rest of the community here wouldn't keep asking it if we felt we had been reasonably answered.

I'm asking about the proof you have of God's existence. Mind you, this proof must be demonstrated and the results must be reproducible. If you don't have anything like that, then you have nothing. Your own experiences do not count as evidence for other people. Telling me that I must experience it doesn't answer it either because I don't know what I'm supposed to experience, or if I'll simply miss the experience.

If someone tells you that they "Know" they've been abducted by aliens, how would you respond to them, GC?