So I went looking for evidence of a soul...

[Violet]

Did they also explain the need for a 'soul' to have weight in the Snopes article?

[Eilonnwy]

I used to believe in souls, even as an atheist. This was one of my last things to let go of when I embraced a more skeptical viewpoint and I will still use the word soul in a metaphorical sense. So no laughing from me.

The main reason I believe in a soul is because of an experience I had where I slowly rose out of my body and saw a silver thread connecting me to my astral body to my physical body. I had never read anything about astral projection so I had no prior knowledge that would lead me to create the hallucination of a silver thread. "The Llewelyn Practical Guide to Astral Projection" talks at length about the silver thread and there were other things that matched my experience.

I think it's clear that everything we experience is a phenomena of the brain. I find it interesting that scientists have pinpointed the exact location in the brain that accounts for the perception that you are in your body, and they can manipulate it with drugs to make you feel like you're outside of the body.

There's a fascinating interview on Skeptics Guide to the Universe, where they interviewed a woman named Dr. Susan Blackmore and she got into parapsychology because of an out of body experience and and believed in a paranormal explanation. It wasn't until years later she realized it was a phenomenon of her brain and abandoned her paranormal studies. If I'm remembering the interview correctly, she says that modern science absolutely proves there is no soul, and nothing more to us than our brains and they discuss this part of the brain that accounts for out of body experience. It's a fascinating discussion, I recommend listening to, maybe it will help you better understand that out of body experience. The Interview starts about 25 minutes into the podcast.

[Rhizomorph13]

I'll have to check it out tomorrow, I'm about to hang out with my dad so I will be busy eating and watching Zombieland! I can't F-ing wait! Zombies AND Woody Harrelson? AWESOME!

My belief in souls isn't a strong one and falls into the same category that God was in for a long time as a nagging belief that held on due to personal experience. My beliefs aren't a known quantity in me. Even though I can sort things into the bins of "yes, I believe", "maybe, I believe" and "no, I do not believe" the strengths of my convictions change depending on my mental state and the ideas that float around in my head. Souls are in the maybe bucket marked as "review me soon".

Rhizo

[fr0d0]

Whilst I'd completely agree with the doctor it would be foolish to assert as "she says that modern science absolutely proves there is no soul". Modern science of course exceeds it's remit there.

[Edwardo Piet]

EvF,

So you honestly consider your responses to me well thought out?

Yes. Not that it takes much.

It isn't necessarily proof of a soul but it could lend some insight into what happens after we die.

What, like losing moisture? I wasn't contradicting that, I was only contradicting the notion of it being a "soul".

That fact that you don't believe it does not mean it didn't happen.

Indeed, and the fact you do believe in something doesn't mean that it did. "Why believe?" that's the question.

Besides, I said the reason "I", me, the author of this thread, believe is because of personal experience.

I know, and as I'm trying to explain - personal experience is not evidence.

The fact that you think I am saying YOU should believe is just your erroneous reading of my post.

The fact that you think I'm saying that you're saying that, is your erroneous reading of my post. I'm just saying that personal experience is not evidence, and trying to use the Sun crashing to earth incident, as an example as to why. I never said you're trying to get me to believe. I'm questioning the fact that you seem to think your personal experience is evidence.

When did I say it was immaterial? I said, "The soul for me would be comprised of the energetic part of the body and the mind."

So the mind is material to you then? Ok, fair enough. It is to me too. Are you a dualist then, or do you think the brain is basically the mind? Just out of interest...

You refer to the Kirlian photography link that I said was a dead end.

The whole point of my thread was to show that there isn't any conclusive, objective evidence of a soul but there might be some interesting follow up to Dr. MacDougall's work.

Not only is there not any 'conclusive, objective evidence', but is there any slightest bit of evidence at all? And as for a follow up, what are you referring to?

EvF

[Rhizomorph13]

Are you a dualist then, or do you think the brain is basically the mind?

Not really sure; I just keep an open mind about the subject because science is inventing new ways to measure reality all the time so we might still find evidence of spirits and souls. For the most part I find it easy to accept that there is only the material world, but so many of my experiences point to their being something else. I know you don't accept personal experience as evidence and for the most part I don't either but it is hard to ignore my own senses so we will just have to mostly agree on this with the exception of the soul.

is there any slightest bit of evidence at all?

Like I said, my own personal experiences are the evidence for me.

And as for a follow up, what are you referring to?

Assuming there is an abrupt weight loss at the point of death, it would be interesting to know what accounts for it. What if the soul is real and material?

Rhizo

[Ryft]

The fact that you don't believe it does not mean it didn't happen. ... The fact that you think I am saying YOU should believe is just your erroneous reading of my post.

What is the word? My vocabulary fails me. It is something between ironic and serendipitous that you are raising this point over here with Evie while, at essentially the same time, I'm raising the exact same point in another thread elsewhere with Eilonnwy. Awesome, hilarious, ironic, serendipitous, neato, something.

[lilphil1989]

So a balloon is weightless? The air was contained in the body at the time of death... very similar to a ballon. It really depends on how sensitive a scale we are talking about here... and how much air one can hold in their lungs.

When you weigh a balloon, you weigh ONLY the balloon, not the air inside it. To confirm this you can weigh a balloon fresh out of the pack, then weigh the balloon after it's been inflated and tied.
The results will be the same (unless you have a VERY sensitive scale that can detect the difference in weight caused by small amounts of saliva entering the balloon during inflation).
The air that's inside the ballon would be there anyway even if the balloon wasn't there, and in the no-balloon case, the scale would read "zero".

Sorry if this is a little off-track , just found this interesting.

[fr0d0]

LOL So the air escaping a body means diddly squat because ar pressure already factors in the zero reading unless we're in a vacuum and the air escaping the body also escapes the vacuum

[Rhizomorph13]

What is the word? My vocabulary fails me. It is something between ironic and serendipitous that you are raising this point over here with Evie while, at essentially the same time, I'm raising the exact same point in another thread elsewhere with Eilonnwy. Awesome, hilarious, ironic, serendipitous, neato, something.

Fun stuff huh? To be honest this thread and the responses in it are causing some interesting reactions in my mind. You see, I have two whole worldviews in my head and when I lean toward a belief in a soul my theistic worldview snaps back into place although even my understanding of that has changed so it is really a new view that incorporates some of the stuff I have read on here. If I reject souls then an atheistic world view makes sense again. So guess which way I'm leaning...

No, my religious views probably aren't going to change although that isn't some overarching goal of mine. We'll see though; I seem to learn more stuff every day I log on to this site. Much of what I learn falls into the bat-shit crazy bucket though, from both of the main camps here.

I have changed my approach to this site. When I first came on, I was looking forward to having glorious battles with theists but have since decided that there is no benefit in that approach. I do sneer and chide every now and again, but, hey nobody's perfect. Well, almost nobody.

Rhizo