A Mormon doubts

[Bad Writer]

Why is it that you can use reason and logic to evaluate the validity of the Mormon religion, and yet you deny yourself this boon when it comes to your own beliefs? Anyway, PeterPriesthood, my Mormon sock puppet, needs to come out again.

:Channels PeterPriesthood:

Did I hear something about the Nicene Creed? Oh boy...

A Christian is someone who adheres at least roughly to the Nicene Creed

False. Do you have any idea the situation of that time period? Christianity wasn't necessarily a strong religion then, but the Roman Empire was very impressed at how the Christians of the day were willing to die rather than give up their faith. Thus, in a smart political move, Emperor Constantine made Christianity the State Religion.

But Constantine wasn't overly fond of Christianity and even worshiped the Sun God till his dying breath (in fact, he didn't get baptized till later in his life, and it was only as a formality). He called the Council at Nicea in order to figure out how Christianity was going to look from then on (obviously, organizing the religion was the first step since a ragtag gang wouldn't exactly incite obedience from all citizens of the Roman Empire).

Christianity had already been in a state of Apostasy since the death of all the Apostles, who were the designated seers and revelators of the faith, but when Constantine got a hold of it, the destruction of all Christ had worked for was complete.

Learned men and philosophers, not prophets, came up with new definitions for god. Friends of the Empire were put in the Church's clergy, while the others in leadership positions were ousted or exiled. Indeed, the Catholic Church was born at this time.

Though other religions sprang up in an attempt to reform the church and bring people back to Christ's true teachings, there was no way to complete this work since the church's apostasy was so far along, and plain and simple truths had been all but lost along the way.

To restore the true Gospel of Christ, a new prophet had to be called, such as Moses or Ezekiel in times past. A new dispensation of the Church in these modern times had to be established: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

If you believe the Nicene Creed, then you're as lost now as all those men were back in the days of Emperor Constantine. What you adhere to as religion is only a shadow of the former glory of Christ's Church. Luckily, that Church exists today, and called to its work and glory are modern-day prophets and apostles.

Mormonism is way outside these guideposts and can't really be considered to be a Christian religion regardless of how much they go on about Jesus. They regard the other Churches as an abomination to God anyway (the one who lives on Kolob with his thousands of wives). But I have no objection if someone wants to follow that faith, even though would point out to them how we know it's wrong. If Native Americans were Jews there would be DNA evidence. If they used steel swords we would have archaeological evidence and so on.

:Ends Channeling PeterPriesthood:

Nice call on the DNA, but you know that Mormons either don't care, or they explain it away with a headache's worth of apologetics. Sound familiar? Steel Swords and Horses and great highways and cities in Ancient America also have a hard time being explained due to lack of evidence, but that doesn't stop Bible freaks from claiming that the Earth is 6000 years old, that the Earth is flat, that Noah and the Ark or Jonah and the Fish actually occurred, or any other nonsense like that. Hell, there's not even any evidence of millions of Jews wandering the wilderness for 40 years. People still believe it. Observe.

:Resumes Channeling PeterPriesthood:

DNA testing? Are you a biologist? Did you personally oversee that test? Satan is always trying to thwart the work of the Lord, and this is obviously one way that he's succeeded with critics of the LDS faith. There may be no evidence of steel being around from the ancient Americas, but there's also no evidence that there was a global flood during the days of Noah. However, we know it happened because it's in the Bible. Jesus walked on water, he fed hundreds with very little, turned water into wine...Moses split the Red Sea! Anything God wants, he can will it to be so. If he wants there to be no shred of evidence of the lost tribes of Israel, such as the one described in the Book of Mormon (Ephraim), then we have to trust that he did this for a good reason. What good is our belief if it is not founded on faith in Jesus, after all?

The Book of Mormon, in case you hadn't noticed, is another Testament of Jesus Christ

An entirely alternative one that has nothing much to do with the Jesus of the Bible. God did not come from outer space to have sex with the virgin Mary to provide his son with a physical body on Earth. There concept of God is something like Zeus that's not God.

The entire book has to do with Jesus. The first prophet, Lehi, has a vision of Christ and the apostles in the first chapter of the book. His son Nephi later prophesies of Christ, being able to because of his great faith in the Lord, and even calls him by name. He starts a group of people in Ancient America, circa 600 BCE, and because of his knowledge of Christ, they call themselves Christians and are even able to give up the restrictions of the Law of Moses long before Christ comes in the flesh. They know all about his atonement long before it actually happens. 3/4 of the way through the book, the resurrected Jesus Christ actually appears to them, as he did to his followers in Jerusalem, and ministers unto them.

If this book isn't about Jesus Christ, then C.S. Lewis' Aslan certainly isn't about Jesus either.

Well [the Book of Mormon] rips sections straight out of the King James Bible. But that doesn't automatically make it Christian. It's Christian if it adheres to Christian theology and doctrine which it does not. It is a new religion based on Christianity not a Christian religion.

You mean when Nephi wants to quote Isaiah? He had the writings of the prophets of the OT, just so you know. Instead of retranslating all that text, Joseph Smith the prophet felt it was faster to just copy those same passages from his copy of the KJV into the Book of Mormon.

Also, this is not a new religion. If anything, yours is the new religion, since you came to your system of beliefs all on your own. All that you do to profess Christ is done in your own fashion, which makes it, by definition, new. Mormonism may have been established in 1830, but the Church itself is identical to the one headed by Christ and his Apostles back when they walked the earth. It's identical because it's a restoration of the truth.

Mormons won't tell you all this unless they are pressed but this is what they actually believe.

:Ends Channeling PeterPriesthood:

I am an Ex-Mormon. I know what their Church believes. It's a hobby of mine to keep up on their more recent activities. I served a mission in Poland, so I even know quite a bit about their teachings. It's not surprising that you know so little about the Church, but if you listen up, I won't give you misinformation about them. I will accurately portray what they believe, and I will even explain to you why they are wrong (DNA testing is only the tip of the iceberg). Don't presume to think that you know anything I don't. If you truly do have new information, I will gladly accept it and do my homework on it. Everything you have said thus far has been the same old anti-Mormon rhetoric though, and it's even more laughable than the religion itself.

:Channels PeterPriesthood:

Time to lay the smackdown on this next part. You are WAAAAAY off the mark here.

There are many thousands/millions of Gods in Mormonism each has their own planet to rule in space.

So there can't be a heirarchy of gods? Even if we get our own planets or solar systems or what have you after we are exalted, we only live there with our spirit families. They still have to be redeemed by Jesus Christ though. We may govern the world we live on, but we are not their God. Eternal Progression means you're always ranking up, but there's also always one above you.

Besides, what's not desirable about being made a governor over part of God's kingdom/universe?

If you die baptized as a Mormon you yourself will become a God with your own planet.

Not even close. If Baptism was all it took, then everyone would be Mormon, don't you think? The road to exaltation is harder than that. You must receive the Temple Endowment before you can even hope to get past the guardian angels that stand watch over the gates of God's Kingdom above, and this ordinance is only available to those who have proven worthy for a period of time.

The Holy Spirit is some kind of non-physical force but God is a man called Elohim and he fathered Jesus biologically through sex with Mary.

Wrong again...well, partially. The Holy Spirit is a man that has not yet received his body. He is still a Spirit at this time because if he wasn't, he would not be able to dwell in our hearts and urge us to do the will of the Lord. He is one in purpose with God the Father, so he is part of the Godhead. After Satan has been defeated following the Millennium, he will be the last man on Earth to be born and exalted with a perfect body.

Elohim did have consensual sex with Mary...his wife! You make it sound so vulgar when you recount it, but Mary was sealed to Elohim, and is in fact one of his many wives.

Speaking of polygamy, even though it's not practiced anymore on earth because of civil law prohibiting it, we can still be sealed to many women and have them be with us forever following this life.

This doctrine did develop as Joesph Smith progressed, initially he may have been closer to the Christian Trinity and the remains of this are in the Book of Mormon. As for the creation of the physical universe Mormons generally share your belief that it is an eternal physical natural order.

I didn't lie that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God. They are three individuals, but they make up a Godhead, so they are one in purpose. How it works is that all three of them are completely in sync with the will of each other. What one says, they all say. Think about Greek polytheisms: those gods are not in tune with each other and go against each others' wills all the time. That is why Mormonism is still a Monotheism; the existence of other gods doesn't change the fact that Mormons only worship one.

God doesn't even have a body, well Jesus had one sure.

So then who did Stephen behold just before he was stoned in Acts? If God could not manifest in such a manner, how could he describe Jesus as sitting to his right? Oh, and the Holy Ghost was there too. If you remember that part of the NT, it was dwelling within him.

Christians pray to God Jesus happened to be God, the Trinity is all one God. Again see the Nicene Creed above.

Then you're not doing it the way Jesus himself proscribed. The Nicene Creed is wrong because it was made by man, not god.

No-one created the universe in Mormonism, matter is supposed to be eternal.

So there can't be matter from a different Universe to create a new one?

Any Mormon will tell you this, and any information to the contrary will be shot down immediately as false.

Well they're not telling you everything.

There wasn't a single God who created everything there is to exist to begin with put it that way. They make stuff up as they go along as they always have a living prophet.

Gods commandments change as time progresses. You can read all about it in the OT. Nothing has changed, and God's ways remain the same. If a Prophet that has been called of God speaks as a man, then he will be judged as a man, but we will not be judged for the wrongdoings of one man.

:End Channeling PeterPriesthood:

Ah, I love being able to bring up that plucky bastard Peter. He's still a fun sock puppet. And don't worry; he'll never hold anything back about his religion. He's very candid and open about what Mormons do and don't believe, and he won't hesitate to call you out for misrepresenting his religion.

[Sword of Christ]

You don't really need to argue against the validity of Mormonism too vigorously we know it's wrong. But here we have some videos that pretty much cover what you need to know. I have read the Book of Mormon btw, as Dawkins says why would a man born in the 19th century translate the golden plates into 16th century English?

















If Mormons want to call themselves Christians they can but I'd put it in the "New Religion" category where Scientology lives. It was in effect the 19th century version of Scientology. There are rules concerning what Christianity is meant to be and I didn't make them myself.

[Bad Writer]

17th century English, not 16th

I argue because a lot of what you are talking about is a misrepresentation of their beliefs, and it makes you sound like an ass when you try to point them out. I'm trying to be helpful, but I realize that you would rather entertain your own misconceptions over verifiable information.

[Esquilax]

Swordy, an old adage about stones and glass houses comes to mind...

[Bad Writer]

SoC, I'm fine knowing that you realize Mormonism is false. I'm just a little perturbed that you came to this conclusion based on a definition of Christianity that people with an obvious political agenda formulated during the Council at Nicea. Mormonism is false because it's bullshit the same way Christianity is.

[Sword of Christ]

17th century English, not 16th

Late 16th early 17th century English then, either way what would motive Joesph Smith to do this unless it was merely to sound "Biblical". For hecks sake he was a convicted con-man and huckster. He searched for buried treasure with magical seer stones inside of his hat. Do we even need to argue about the validity of Mormonism here? Come on now lets get a bit serious here. Only one book has the full authentic words of the living God made flesh.



This is the book for you right here, never mind the Book of Mormon we have dealt with that one. The truth you seek, right here. Make a man out of you it will.

I argue because a lot of what you are talking about is a misrepresentation of their beliefs, and it makes you sound like an ass when you try to point them out. I'm trying to be helpful, but I realize that you would rather entertain your own misconceptions over verifiable information.

What I said about Mormonism is true that's what they so believe, their version of God differs wildly from that of the real God, their version of Jesus differs wildly from the real Jesus will encounter both within the scriptures and within the light of humanity itself. The Bible itself warns against false prophets, don't let them lead you astray into thinking falsehoods about the genuine Christianity, it is not Mormonism or anything to do with it. Anyone can take Christs name and use it for their own personal ends.

SoC, I'm fine knowing that you realize Mormonism is false. I'm just a little perturbed that you came to this conclusion based on a definition of Christianity that people with an obvious political agenda formulated during the Council at Nicea. Mormonism is false because it's bullshit the same way Christianity is.

The political agenda wasn't introduced into Christianity until the 4th century AD.

[Bad Writer]

17th century English, not 16th

Late 16th early 17th century English then, either way what would motive Joesph Smith to do this unless it was merely to sound "Biblical". For hecks sake he was a convicted con-man and huckster. He searched for buried treasure with magical seer stones inside of his hat. Do we even need to argue about the validity of Mormonism here?

I'm not arguing for its validity, Swordy. I'm arguing that you're a punk that hears a bit of anti-Mormon hearsay and you take it as fact.

Joseph was convicted as a conman, but the treasure seeking practices were common in his area. He was guilty by association. Every one involved in the practice believed in magic and superstition, and seerstones peered at in a hat were common at the time.

It's true that he looked into his hat to get the words of the Book of Mormon, but he eventually realized that this type of sorcery was nothing compared to the supposed power of god, and he soon began to prophesy in the manner that the prophets of the OT did.

Whether or not his actions with the Book of Mormon were meant to dupe the masses is a moot point. He had always wanted to put his childhood fantasies and stories into the written word, and as the Bible was one of his only literary sources back then, he used its writing style as a template for this book.

The purpose was not to make a new religion (the whole thing about the Churches of the world being an abomination came much later in the History of Mormonism and was later interpolated into his accounts), but to make a form of Christianity that his entire family could enjoy, as his mother and father were split on the issue. In fact, the real driving force for the start of Mormonism was his mother. If Joseph's eldest brother Alvin had not died, then the Church's leadership would have fallen to him, as had the entire estate of the Smith household. However, Joseph was the source of the Book of Mormon, and, being a Charismatic fellow, was able to lead it.

The Church, surprisingly, gained popularity, and it grew beyond Joseph's family's wildest dreams. He actually believed he was a prophet, and so when he was killed by an angry mob in 1848, he died almost without a fight. In the eyes of the Mormons, this made him a true martyr.

My point? You don't even know a fraction of what was happening during the times of Smith and his family, so to say that he was a conman out to dupe the masses is entirely out of place in the grand scheme of things. I suggest you read "Rough Stone Rolling" if you want to get a lot of your facts a little straighter. The book may be authored by a Mormon, but he describes the times of this man with stunning accuracy.

I'm also a good source of factual information, but I think you've already made up your mind about what you perceive as factual. Truly, a little bit of extra research goes a long way. Like I mentioned earlier, Mormonism is false, but not exactly for all the reasons you present.

Come on now lets get a bit serious here. Only one book has the full authentic words of the living God made flesh.

Only one book? What about the Quran? The Vita? And which interpretation of the Bible are you referring to? They don't all say the same thing. Before you can tell people that the Bible is the word of God, you have your work cut out for you in trying to demonstrate this God's existence. Here's a hint: the Bible is not evidence for this.

What I said about Mormonism is true that's what they so believe, their version of God differs wildly from that of the real God, their version of Jesus differs wildly from the real Jesus...

There. The words in bold are your real problem.

The political agenda wasn't introduced into Christianity until the 4th century AD.

How exactly was the council at Nicea not a political move? I would even argue that the Apostles were very much political, but that would get us of track a bit.

---

Also, that first video of yours is old and grossly out of date. You won't find a single Mormon, not even in the leadership positions, that believe in many of the things presented there. Elohim may have at some point been thought by some members to have physically impregnated Mary, but they all believe in conception by the Holy Ghost now (I actually think the Spirit rape scenario to be a little creepier). The makers of the video didn't know much about Kolob, and even though Mormons talk about it sometimes, it's not really a big deal to them. I mean...where do you think your god hangs his hat? I commend them for at least trying to explain it, but you can't even explain where your god comes from. So excuse me for trying to be helpful...perhaps you should go talk to someone who really is a Mormon? I'd recommend against it though, as he won't tell you half things that I will; he's even willing to lie for his faith if it means preserving some of the "harder to understand" doctrines of his church.

[Faith No More]

The Bible itself warns against false prophets, don't let them lead you astray into thinking falsehoods about the genuine Christianity...

I love it when Christians use this part about false prophets, never once stopping to think that it applies equally to themselves.

[Jackalope]

I think you've already made up your mind about what you perceive as factual.

No way.

[Bad Writer]

My wife always says, "Research, research, research." She won't listen to a word I say until I can back my arguments.