Moral Argument for God's Existence

[genkaus]

No, where do you get 'ought'?

What do you mean by that?

No, you are making a value judgement - you are presuming a moral stance. One can argue that the man's life was simpler, therefore better.

It is not objective.

Which life is better is not a judgment dependent on moral stance. There are specific psychological indicators based on objective needs which inform the value judgment. You could argue that man's life was simpler, therefore better - and you'd be wrong.

[Chas]

No, where do you get 'ought'?

What do you mean by that?

You keep talking about how one ought to live or should live. How do you know what one ought to or should do?

No, you are making a value judgement - you are presuming a moral stance. One can argue that the man's life was simpler, therefore better.

It is not objective.

Which life is better is not a judgment dependent on moral stance. There are specific psychological indicators based on objective needs which inform the value judgment. You could argue that man's life was simpler, therefore better - and you'd be wrong.

You keep making pronouncements. You are becoming tedious.

[genkaus]

Please climb down off of your high horse, it's hard to hear you from there.

Is it harder to read as well?

You are claiming a definition of morality and others disagree with your definition. Your claim to being right does not make you right.

Obviously. Being right makes me right.

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong).

The term “morality” can be used either

1. descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

Please define the basis on which one determines how one should live absent other people. What is the basis for choice?

That's a part of a larger discussion that I won't engage in unless the premise of that discussion is agreed upon. I'm not going to lay down the details of how one should live only for you to say in the end "but that's not what morality is".

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You keep talking about how one ought to live or should live. How do you know what one ought to or should do?

What I keep saying here is morality talks about how one ought to live or should live. We can start discussing what morality (sp. objective morality) says or would say once we agree upon this fact.

You keep making pronouncements. You are becoming tedious.

Factual pronouncements. You missed that part.

[Chas]

Please climb down off of your high horse, it's hard to hear you from there.

Is it harder to read as well?

You are claiming a definition of morality and others disagree with your definition. Your claim to being right does not make you right.

Obviously. Being right makes me right.

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong).

The term “morality” can be used either

1. descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

Please define the basis on which one determines how one should live absent other people. What is the basis for choice?

That's a part of a larger discussion that I won't engage in unless the premise of that discussion is agreed upon. I'm not going to lay down the details of how one should live only for you to say in the end "but that's not what morality is".

The first (preferred) definition you quote shows morality is defined in relation to other people. The second refers to specified conditions.

I am asking you to specify your conditions.

[genkaus]

The first (preferred) definition you quote shows morality is defined in relation to other people.

I'm not sure which definition you are referring to, but none of them define morality in relation to other people.

The second refers to specified conditions. I am asking you to specify your conditions.

You missed the point here - the definitions given are of descriptive morality and normative morality - neither of which are defined in relation to other people. The common element, however, is 'code of conduct' - which is what morality is.

[Chas]

The first (preferred) definition you quote shows morality is defined in relation to other people.

I'm not sure which definition you are referring to, but none of them define morality in relation to other people.

The second refers to specified conditions. I am asking you to specify your conditions.

You missed the point here - the definitions given are of descriptive morality and normative morality - neither of which are defined in relation to other people. The common element, however, is 'code of conduct' - which is what morality is.

How is "put forward by society" not in relation to other people?

You have yet to define how morality is determined.

[genkaus]

How is "put forward by society" not in relation to other people?

Because an entity can put forward a definition without becoming part of the subject of the definition.

You have yet to define how morality is determined.

That's a nonsensical request. I can't define how morality is determined - no one can. I can explain how different moralities are determined. I can explain how, what I regard as objective morality, is determined. And as I've said before, I'll do that once we agree upon what morality means.

[MindForgedManacle]

As interesting as the discussion is, shouldn't we shift it back to the moral argument? o3o

[genkaus]

As interesting as the discussion is, shouldn't we shift it back to the moral argument? o3o

You mean the definition of morality is not relevant to the moral argument?

[Chas]

How is "put forward by society" not in relation to other people?

Because an entity can put forward a definition without becoming part of the subject of the definition.

You have yet to define how morality is determined.

That's a nonsensical request. I can't define how morality is determined - no one can. I can explain how different moralities are determined. I can explain how, what I regard as objective morality, is determined. And as I've said before, I'll do that once we agree upon what morality means.

If you cannot determine how morality is defined, how can you determine what is or is not moral for our solitary person?

There seem to be only two answers:

1. Morality is objective, or
   
2. Morality is imposed.
   

If morality is objective, then it can be arrived at rationally.

If it is imposed, then it is imposed by an outside agency.

Morality is defined as our behavior in regards to its effects on other people.

If you don't agree with that, then please provide examples of moral strictures that should be followed by our solitary person.